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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 09:09 PM
    It's weird, isn't it, that someone can say that the people who actually experienced something had no idea what they were doing. So ... I guess I have to go with gaslighting at this point? Seriously, you get that you're basically saying that all of us Olds were just too stupid to understand the game we were playing, right? It's pretty amazing that we can even get our truckz out on these here...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 09:05 PM
    ONE FILM IS NOT ENOUGH FOR KEANU!
    19 replies | 482 view(s)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 09:05 PM
    Because sometimes, I suck at posting. :)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 09:01 PM
    Good. I don't want them banned. I want them dead. Terminated. With extreme prejudice.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:56 PM
    Well, the thing is, it's a lot closer to all the other "lore" rules in OD&D/1e. Why can't monks use flaming oil? Why can't clerics use edged weapons? Why do Druids use scimitars????? Why do any three classes have an armor type between NONE and ANY - Thief, Assassin, and Druid (leather)? Why do thieves get swords, so long as they aren't bastard of two-handed? Why can assassins use any...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:39 PM
    Oh .... yeah. Hmmmm.... I'm not old- it's just the new stuff that sucks, right? Right? ... Get off my lawn!
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:34 PM
    I very much would like that card!
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:31 PM
    So, again, without prying, I think at least part (but not all) of the divide is when you were exposed to the rules. I did a separate thread checking other people and their experience with "lore" rules (clerics can't/won't use edged weapons, monks can't/won't use oil, druids can't/won't use metal armor) from OD&D/1e, and the experience was the same- that's just the way it was. To the...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:22 PM
    Sure. First-hand account, third party account? I mean, I know that Gygax was a huge fan of Fritz, and we have the Nehwon mythos and all that (not to mention Appendix N, references in other books, and so on), so it's completely credible- just hard, especially given that this wasn't a Gygax class. TBH, I have some doubts about the amount of credibility w/r/t to the whole Cugel and Shadowjack...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:01 PM
    Gah. I was actually looking at p.4 when I wrote that, and so you can imagine where that error came from! No- always looking for some. BUT ... that's only part of it. As I explain lower-
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 07:43 PM
    What you describe as "DM Fiat" is what I would say is "A Player Following the Rules." And not only is there a printed rule in actual rulebooks, but there is a further explanation that this is the way it is, UNLESS your DM allows it. So .... yeah. I mean, I get that people love to argue, and I understand that younger gamers unused to the history of the game are unfamiliar with how rules...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 07:37 PM
    Well, let's look at this from the standpoint of where it was introduced, right? HISTORY! So we have the OD&D Thief. p.4 Might and Magic- here, we see the ability to read languages and read magical writings. So we know it traces back to there. Okay, how about the Great Plains Article that preceded it? Well, it's the same, except no chance of failure! That was added, so the chance of...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 07:14 PM
    Let's be quite clear. If you want to wear metal armor, under RAW or RAI, as a Druid, you need to get permission from the DM. Period. There is no reasonable dispute about that. Now, if you want to use Dexterity as the spellcasting stat for your Magic User, you also need DM's permission. Period. ...are you understanding this.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 07:10 PM
    There are no Paladins. As is well know, and cannot be reasonably disputed, Gygax began to insert "Paladin" into his books as a test- much like makers of atlases and maps would insert fake towns to see if anyone would try and copy them, Gygax would insert Paladins into his books to see if anyone was stupid enough to copy that class. Gygax was very protective of his creation! Unfortunately,...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 07:03 PM
    Actually, yeah. It's not that I disagree with you necessarily, it's that I don't know that I've ever seen it. I mean, for the Thief, we have the Aero Games evidence (which is pretty strong). And then, when Gygax talks about it, he discusses Vance and Zelazny AFAIK.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:42 PM
    I love the Lieber, but I have some trouble tracking down specific Mouser references! AFAICT, it's mostly the Aero Games model, with some Zelazny (Jack of Shadows / Shadowjack) and Vance (Cugel the Clever), but I don't doubt that Lieber may have some influence- just don't have a cite or way to verify.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:36 PM
    Just pointing out the following things- (1) Apparently, it doesn't matter what anyone says. AL or otherwise. (2) As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, following is the relevant text from the Sage Advice Compendium: A druid typically wears leather, studded leather, or hide armor, and if a druid comes across scale mail made of a material other than metal, the druid might wear it. If...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:22 PM
    So, my understanding on this one is that you started with Sir Fang (the Vampire) in the Blackmoor / Arneson campaign And from that, you need to balance this uber-powerful Vampire. So you get a a Vampire Hunter modeled after the Peter Cushing / Hammer films- that's the whole turn undead, holy water, cure disease and wounds etc. This "vampire hunter" became the Priest Class. This Priest...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:04 PM
    Bonus fun fact! The Sage was supposed to a PC class in the Blackmoor supplement (OD&D). Instead, we have a long and detailed sage NPC specialist (pp. 50-51). WHY? Arneson had a Sage Class, and it was in the manuscript. Kask edited to be an NPC. So, yeah, it almost was an Original Class! :)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:33 PM
    Dunno- I'm hoping I can learn something. ESPECIALLY about the Assassin. It wasn't until I put up the list like this that I realized the mystery that is the Assassin. Art imitating life imitating art?
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:31 PM
    Maybe the monk & oil example wasn't the best one to use for the three! Man, no love for the Kung Fu fighter! ;)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:21 PM
    Wait- you're for it? I'm against it. What are we talking about?
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:20 PM
    Well, just like there's a fine line between clever and stupid, there can be a fine line between awesome and creepy. A fair amount of anime crosses that line for me. Well, I'm 13 episodes in, and IIRC things are about to get a lot more awesome. So, there's that. What's killing me right now is that, TBH, I don't watch almost any anime, but I did watch a bootleg anime that a...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:04 PM
    Alchemy Jug 26 Bag of Holding 22 Bag of Tricks 26 Broom of Flying 21 Carpet of Flying 22 My nemesis.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 04:54 PM
    None of that was quite as weird as the tangent on RAILROADING ... but that was so bizarre that I couldn't even. Player: I want to play a Wizard. DM: Great! Player: And my spellcasting stat will be Dexterity. DM: Um, so ... can we talk about ...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 04:39 PM
    Hola! So, one of the things I like to look into is the history of the game. And I'm always curious about the current state of research and/or received wisdom about the classes in D&D- where they came from, how we have the archetypes that we have, and so on. So I thought I'd start a post for people, if they want to, to discuss the history of classes in D&D. I'm concentrating on the origin of...
    23 replies | 367 view(s)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 02:59 PM
    Yeah, I don't know that I've ever seen the origin of that one; it's so weird and hyper-specific it has to come from somewhere. Maybe from an episode of Kung Fu in the 70s?
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 02:58 PM
    Yeah, it is a typo! DOH! Corrected.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Yesterday, 02:57 PM
    You are incorrect on this. I already went through this for the PHB. As I am guessing you missed this, I will repeat my prior post- So, how do we know this? Let's read the rules in pari materia.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 24th June, 2019, 11:15 PM
    Really? It would appear that you don’t understand the argument made by anyone else. I mean- how many posts, and you still don’t seem to grok that people don’t agree with you. That said, if you’re correct then it is completely legal in all AL games. Is it? Should be simple enough to find out. Instead of continually asserting something others disagree with.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 24th June, 2019, 10:56 PM
    Citation please. So, are you saying that you played at the time, but you played the wrong way? Or ...maybe not? PS- Given I know my experience, but love to know other people's, I started a separate thread to gauge actual play: https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?660258-1e-and-OD-amp-D-How-did-you-handle-Druids-and-Armor-Clerics-and-Edge-Weapons
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 24th June, 2019, 10:53 PM
    So, a different thread about druids and metallic armor in 5e has repeatedly referenced the way Druids were in OD&D / 1e, and how there wasn't really a rule about classes and so on so forth. Anyway, with the usual caveat of "Everyone played AD&D/OD&D" in a different way, I was looking to do a thread to see how people actually played OD&D and AD&D from 1976 - April 1985.* So here's the...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 24th June, 2019, 10:18 PM
    By the way, the actual Gygaxian method of handling the Plate-wearing druid, or the two-handed sword-weilding cleric, is DMG p. 110. Here- Some players will find more enjoyment in spoiling a game than in playing it, and this ruins the fun for the rest of the participants, so it must be prevented. Those who enjoy being loud and argumentative, those who pout or act in a childish manner when...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 24th June, 2019, 10:00 PM
    You are just making stuff up now. I assume you played OD&D and 1e, correct? So you understand that while people played in all sorts of different ways, the mindset was completely different back then? I understand you have repeatedly ignored the whole class/lore issue, but ... c'mon. Are you going to be seriously arguing that you understand how Clerics used edged weapons in OD&D and 1e so...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 24th June, 2019, 09:00 PM
    So, if you haven't noticed, thought I'd share- Neon Genesis Evangelion is out on Netflix. It wasn't previously available. If you aren't familiar with it, then, well, you probably aren't too familiar with anime, but if you're looking for an entry point... eh, this isn't it. ;)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 24th June, 2019, 08:18 PM
    No. What you mean is the Weapon Proficiency Table on p. 36. So go through this, assuming some knowledge of 1e: Let's use the Druid as an example: You start with a number of proficiencies, for a Druid, 2. That means you get to choose 2 of your allowed weapons - for a Druid, you can choose between club, dagger, dart, hammer, scimitar, sling, spear, and staff. A total of eight (8)...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 24th June, 2019, 07:59 PM
    I hear what you're saying, and I understand your point; that said, you should consider the following two issues in tandem: 1. When you say you are "anti-elitism" (as opposed to anti-intellectual?), this is similar to a battle that many of us fought when we were young. Quite frankly, I am perfectly happy to have read my books and been all nerdy; there is something distinctly disturbing, to me,...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 24th June, 2019, 06:04 PM
    Well, maybe. But notice how you and others describe the "not your style." Previously, it was described as funny voices. Now, it's-
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 24th June, 2019, 05:44 PM
    Alchemy Jug 28 Bag of Holding 30 Bag of Tricks 25 Broom of Flying 23 Carpet of Flying 24 Cube of Force 2 It's bigger on the inside is a line from Dr. Who, not a great magic item.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 24th June, 2019, 05:37 PM
    So, there's this. And also, this- Paul Farquhar Let's examine the history a little, first. Druids are probably the most poorly-understood class in terms of history. Let's start with the actual text (Eldritch Wizardry, Supp. 3, OD&D) where the Druid first crossed over from monster to PC.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 09:32 PM
    Completely agree. Well ... mostly agree. I think that, like a lot of Sage Advice, it's poorly considered. Even the Sage Advice in the compendium which tends to be less stupid than most SA. I could start by saying that I don't care that much about "balance," but the real issue for balance is the whole Moon / Land Druid thing; I don't think that they really paid much attention to that. ...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 09:27 PM
    Alchemy Jug 28 Bag of Holding 29 Bag of Tricks 27 Broom of Flying 26 Carpet of Flying 28 Cube of Force 18 Cubic Gate 15 CORRECTED
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 09:26 PM
    Post #229 Alchemy Jug 29 Bag of Holding 30 Bag of Tricks 27 Broom of Flying 26 Carpet of Flying 28 Cube of Force 20​ Cubic Gate 13
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 09:19 PM
    Are you every curious why people may not view your analysis of rules as overly credible? So, let's just review this. Here is EXACTLY what I wrote that you quoted: "2. Sage advice is just RAI." So, just so we are clear, we all know that RAI is not the Italian TV Broadcaster, but instead means Rules As Interpreted.
    416 replies | 8293 view(s)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 08:25 PM
    1. The rules do say that. Period. 2. Sage advice is just RAI. So best case scenario, you're still wrong. And you're not reading the RAI correctly (which says you have to ask the DM, just like any other house rule). Bad cherrypicking is still cherrypicking. Good luck!
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 07:11 PM
    Let's see- Druid:Class Features:Proficiencies: "Armor: Light armor, medium armor, shields (druids willnot wear armor or use shields made of metal)" P. 65, PHB Seem like a not rule to me! Wait, let's look at the MULTICLASSING PROFICIENCIES GAINED!
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 05:03 PM
    Fair enough. Talk to the DM about your 'shroom dude. :) (By the way, the whole lore/mechanics thing? That was kinda sorta the joke from the first post on, when the OP said that this NEVER EVER happened in any prior edition of D&D, when, in fact, this was the case for most of D&D's history.)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 04:46 PM
    Not to be too obvious, but: Why is it that there are, largely, two groups of people in this debate. The first sees the druid restriction, understands it for what it is, and are like, "Okay, cool, if other people disagree with it, then they can just houserule it." The second attempts to make various arguments that UNLESS the rule is perfect, then THE RULE DOESN'T APPLY. Now, notice how...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 04:04 PM
    Woah ... I know creole.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 03:55 PM
    There are two types of people in this world: (1) People that play Paladins; (2) people that do not rage, rage against the dying of the smite; and (3) the innumerate.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 03:42 PM
    By RAW they are not, however, Druids. So, they can't. Let's see how silly this semantic game can be with rules lawyers. C'mon, it's fun for the whole table! It says that a Knight's retainer "will not" follow me into a dangerous area, like a Dungeon. (PHB 136). But it doesn't say that they will EXPLODE. Therefore, they follow me into the dungeon. It says that if a Paladin violates...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 02:57 PM
    So, I won't comment on your other thread (so as not to derail it), but I would note the following as general comments: 1. While I have not played the game, I have read Vance extensively, including The Dying Earth. As a kid, I loved this series (APPENDIX N!), with the whole baroque language and wordplay (kind of like a starter set to Oscar Wilde) and some black comedy with the wit ... but I...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 01:49 PM
    Alchemy Jug 28 Bag of Holding 25 Bag of Tricks 29 Broom of Flying 27 Carpet of Flying 27 Crystal Ball 4 Cube of Force 19 Cubic Gate 19 I WILL FIGHT AGAINST THE TYRANNY OF HOLDING!
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 10:19 PM
    So, I know some of us (me, at least) are having some fun. But, to be serious for a second- A lot of this will depend on communication and presentation. There are very few DMs that I know that enjoy or look forward to a player presenting a "list of grievances" or lengthy explanations as to why core mechanics do not apply their special character. In many campaigns (such as mine), that player...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 10:01 PM
    I recommend adding a third rule. List of Grievances > /dev/null
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 09:56 PM
    I just make it easy on players. Player: "I wanna play a druid." DM: "Ok." Player: "I wanna play a druid that can wear plate." DM: "Um, no?"
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 08:24 PM
    "You know that cereal? Grapenuts? .... so, about the casting of Stoneskin ...."
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 08:15 PM
    With a real druid, you're lucky if they even wear clothes. "Radagast! Put the sack back on. We don't need to see your shillelagh and goodberries."
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 08:03 PM
    Woah, now! If someone is going to harangue me over my choices, I at least want them to have the courage of their convictions.* I don't want someone moaning about my yummy al pastor taco if they are drinking a milkshake. They need to be sickly and dairy-free.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 08:00 PM
    I think you're missing the joke? The first 25 years was OD&D, AD&D, B/X, BECMI, and 2e. I think your opinion of those editions ... is probably a little different than those of just about everyone else. If you are stating that there was never any removal of player agency (MAN, THAT TERM IS THE GOOD STUFF!), then I have some a Gygaxian Ethereal Mummy to sell you, cheap.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 04:33 PM
    I coulda taken an acting class. I coulda been an actah. I coulda been somebody, instead of a bum, which is what I am, let's face it.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 04:27 PM
    Well, I mean, look .... if Marvel can make Guardians of the Galaxy work and be a hit, I wouldn't put anything past them. Why not Squirrel Girl? But the particular dynamics and powers of the FF are just ... not nearly as relevant as they were. IOW, to the extent that you can retcon their origin, change around some stuff, and call it FF, why not? But I don't know that the particular FF dynamics...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 03:58 PM
    Sounds like a labradoodle,* except twice an annoying and five times as needy. A Paladruid, though, is usually known by a more common name- the Evangelizing Vegan. /ducks *EDIT- Bonus cool hybrid animal portmanteau: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/06/narluga-very-strange-hybrid-whale/592057/
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 03:46 PM
    Um, I think I commented earlier (Living Steel), but I remembered another one- Cyborg Commando. IIRC, it had all the worst aspects of late-period Gygaxian (tables, rules that didn't make sense, completely unnecessary math) and none of the advantages (fun, sense of adventure and wonder, verbose language that serves the game). At the time, there was a fair amount of excitement about it....
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 03:32 PM
    ...."morally abhorrent." BWAH! I need to have this thread mainlained straight into my veins. "So, I don't let druids wear metal armor." "WHAT ARE YOU, A BABY KILLER???!!!!!???"
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 03:27 PM
    NORTHSTAR! I agree about representation ... we would need a Canadian, right? I think Keanu can play Canadian- Idaho is in Canadia, right? He did that movie with River Phoenix? Namor would be a good choice.* But wait .... I think I have it. How about .... Captain Britain.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 01:44 PM
    Counter-counterpoint. Typical play for AD&D was whatever I was playing. Atypical play for AD&D was whatever you were playing. -From personal experience, I would say that the game was marketed for 3 or more; the modules would often say anywhere from 4 to 10 players, as they were often, or usually, designed for, or out of, competition or conventions early on. My experience was that many...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 01:35 PM
    Counterpoint- All druids cannot wear metal, and reek of patchouli.
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 01:12 PM
    .....um..... ..ahh...... MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! *sniffle* I am not sure that you are using the terms "rule" and "edition" and "D&D" in the same way that most people do.
    416 replies | 8293 view(s)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 12:56 PM
    lowkey13 started a thread Keanu in the MCU
    So, if you've followed the other thread here- https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?659444-John-Wick-3-Should-You-See-It ...then you know the following: 1. John Wick 3 is the greatest movie of all time, and should be given all awards, ever. 2. The John Wick franchise is the greatest cinematic universe in the history of cinema and universes, including but not limited to other...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 12:45 PM
    Sorta? If I remember to always quote as "plain text" then yes. Has this gotten sorted yet? Has this gotten sorted yet?
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 12:40 PM
    Alchemy Jug 30 Bag of Holding 25 Bag of Tricks 27 Broom of Flying 27 Carpet of Flying 26 Crystal Ball 11 Cube of Force 23 Cubic Gate 18 When God hands you a Bag of Holding,
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 07:54 PM
    Let's see. In order, the "BIG" settings in D&D are as follows, in rough order of use/importance: BIG AND GENERIC-Y Forgotten Realms Greyhawk Mystara Nentir Vale
    25 replies | 871 view(s)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 06:01 PM
    Alchemy Jug 30 Bag of Holding 24 Bag of Tricks 28 Broom of Flying 26 Carpet of Flying 27 Crystal Ball 10 Crystal Ball of Telepathy 8 Cube of Force 22 Cubic Gate 20
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 09:07 PM
    Well, more reliable is an objective statement (usually). You can give it a metric, and then say something is, or isn't, more reliable. Not "better." Not even "better designed." Because design incorporate other elements- and designing for reliability might get rid of other aspects that you do appreciate. Or you might just not care about reliability in comparison to other things. There's an...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 07:13 PM
    This shouldn't be too hard. "I want to design a car that works great for a lot of things. Not just driving fast, or looking good, or gas mileage, or any one thing. I want a vehicle that is functional for all things. It's pretty good at stuff, and carries stuff too. " Voila, the minivan. You have a design goal, and you achieve it. It's functional. Does that mean that a person MUST...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 05:40 PM
    I'm just going to quote this part for the "whoosh" component. Look, I'm not asserting anything. But just labeling things and defining them doesn't mean you don't keep confusing your subjective standards for an objective standard. Let me show you, one final time, the difference: Objective: 4e had a design objective of doing away with so-called "LFQW," and allowing each character class...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 05:21 PM
    Joshua Randall - Let me assist: Objective: "allowed any stat to be an attack stat" Subjective: "produced the best monster books ever produced for any D&D edition, bar none ... and the Monster Vault and MV Threats to the Nentir Vale are in the top 10 of all gaming books ever"
    245 replies | 10758 view(s)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 03:52 PM
    So, I'm just going to say two things I have noticed, and I hope you take them in the spirit of a good-faith conversation: The first is that I have noticed that you often state your playstyle preferences as if they were fact; which is not conducive to a good conversation! There is a difference between normative (what ought to be) and descriptive (what is). Now, you might have very strong...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 02:59 PM
    Alchemy Jug 28 Bag of holding 27 Bag of Tricks 28 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 9 Broom of Flying 23 Carpet of Flying 28 Crystal Ball 12 Crystal Ball of Telepathy 12 Cube of Force 25 Cubic Gate 23
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 10:26 PM
    So, w/r/t and what Umbran said earlier, I am reminded about the controversies over the introduction of the original Thief class. One of the issues with introducing the class was that people were worried that if you introduced a Thief with certain defined skills (like Hide in Shadows) that would mean that individuals who were not Thieves could not perform the skill. Moreover, once you start to...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 10:04 PM
    Well, that's what I was trying to think of- the APs seem much, much, much longer! X2 (Castle Amber) I've run several times in 5e- love it (although the ending is anti-climactic without revisions because of the 5e "one monster" problem). I3-I5 is the still the gold standard, IMO.
    17 replies | 819 view(s)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 09:57 PM
    I didn't want to comment on the rest of your post, but something stuck with me, and I went back, and this was it. There is a large disconnect if you keep insisting (as I have seen various designers insist) that the consumers are "just doing it wrong." Let's give an easy example- a lot of what you hear is engineered to please you. Like ... the thunk of your car door when it closes. You may,...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 09:33 PM
    Well, the difference being that this would be the release of a system that is no longer supported, and isn't very popular (no offense). I am sure that there would be some 3PP that would seize the chance to take it out for a spin, but, yeah, given that it wouldn't have D&D behind it, it wouldn't go very far. So ... yeah. (Now, given the general risk-adverseness of corporations, I would be...
    245 replies | 10758 view(s)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 09:13 PM
    Well, I should start by saying that I'm not making an "argument." It's more of an analysis of the various claims (and counterclaims) that I see flying around about 4e; I decided to finally get around to researching them, and this is what I think of these main claims. That said, quality is completely subjective, right? I mean, someone who grew up in the 80s can say that in 1984, The Adevntures...
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 08:49 PM
    So, I agree with you re: need. I've played diceless games that allow for narrative combat. And it is certainly possible to have games with social rules (and many do). ...that said, I think the reason for this split is somewhat clear. As originally conceived, D&D had a somewhat ... mixed ... nature. In fact, the best way to think of it is to think of old- school CRPGs, when you are just...
    350 replies | 10704 view(s)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 08:14 PM
    I'm going to post a few thoughts on this, while noting that some of your statements are not going to be agreeable, and that may be why certain things are missed by you (such as 3e and 4e merely "consolidating" "needless complexity" of prior editions). Necessary Disclaimer I don't care about any edition wars; I think everything since UA in 1985 is, for the most part, crud, and 5e is ......
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 06:23 PM
    I mean, I often adapted modules into whatever campaign I was running at the time. I often wonder, looking back, how I possibly had time for this, as well as everything else I was up to! Ah, youth. But it did make me think- if people had trouble finishing the 1e modules, how on earth are people finishing the APs? Anecdotally, I know that some of the teen groups that I taught and gone off on...
    17 replies | 819 view(s)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 06:18 PM
    From 1e (since I know it best) Agree on the defined race/class themes and limitations. Playing without them is like playing tennis without a net. Don't care about uneven class progression, BUT ... I do miss uneven classes. You know what? Not everything needs perfect balance. You want to suffer as a Magic User for four levels, so you can kick butt later? More power to you! I miss saving...
    51 replies | 2009 view(s)
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  • lowkey13's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 05:39 PM
    AD&D isn't 2e. Dem's fighting words. The first sign that AD&D was suffering from the consumption was the publication of Unearthed Arcana; the DSG and WSG was the coughing up of blood in bed; 2e was the final death rattle. ;) (I think that the individualized experiences of times past is often opaque, and while greater understandings can be achieved, true understanding is often elusive.)
    17 replies | 819 view(s)
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Wednesday, 26th June, 2019


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Friday, 21st June, 2019

  • 09:10 PM - Harzel mentioned lowkey13 in post Survivor Magic Items (Misc. A-C)- THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!
    lowkey13 A major retcon occurred between #229 and #230. There are now a bunch of votes on top of that. Not sure how you want to fix since a bunch of the newer votes were for/against Crystal Ball, which was eliminated at #225. Alchemy Jug 29 Bag of Holding 29+1=30 Bag of Tricks 27 Broom of Flying 26 Carpet of Flying 28 Cube of Force 20​ Cubic Gate 15-2=13 Alchemy Jug 28 Bag of Holding 26 Bag of Tricks 29 Broom of Flying 27 Carpet of Flying 27 Crystal Ball 5 Cube of Force 19 Cubic Gate 19

Monday, 17th June, 2019

  • 11:30 PM - Imaro mentioned lowkey13 in post Should I play 4e?
    ... rather read me some Forgotten Realms than say the Great Gatsby, Moby Dick, or Catcher in the Rye. Does this mean forgotten realms is of an equal or higher quality than a literary classic because I enjoyed it more? LOL no. Not even a little bit. And if I tried to claim as such, I would be (rightly) mocked because it is just clearly not so. So when Tony claims "4e was as good a game as D&D ever managed to be"...coming back with 'But not as many people liked it!' is meaningless and doesn't address the point. Now, I mean, he doesn't really back up his claim with anything and its fine if you disagree. But the metric of 'How many people enjoyed/did not enjoy this' does not belong in a discussion about quality. Does it have a place in a discussion about 'What can we sell to make more money?' Absolutely. But thats not Tony's claim. 5e is a more profitable edition. Hands down. But that is not indicative of quality of the product. I don't see where, in the post you were responding to, that lowkey13 made a statement concerning qualitative judgement, if anything he seemed to be responding to this part of the sentence he emphasized.... ... and if you weren't too deeply wedded to the flaws of past editions, it was hard to dislike. where it does seem to be implying if not outright stating that the product isn't to blame for it's failure or consumers disliking... a flaw in the consumer is. If anything I've seen Tony Vargas make continuous statements around qualitative judgement concerning 4e and other editions without backing it up in any way. Which I guess is why I see this particular call out as kind of odd.

Friday, 14th June, 2019

  • 12:56 AM - pemerton mentioned lowkey13 in post Formatting- Quotes Not Coming Out Correctly
    I use the traditional colour scheme (white post text, orange button text, on black background). In the post I mentioned in the "literary endeavour" thread there are two quote blocks. The first I can read. The second is, for me, an empty quote block. When I highlight it the text appears. I assume that the text has COLOR tags around it that are making it black. In the past when posters have had this issue I believe it's been because they're preparing posts in Word or some similar formatting-rich environment, and then when they copy-and-paste into the message board editor the formatting tags are carried along with the text. lowkey13, I can't recall if this is a recurrent feature of your posts or not. In the case of the particular post I commented on it was the particluar context of the phrase "My last post", which I realised I'd probably misinterpreted, that made the invisible quote salient to me. Maybe you've had invisible quotes in the past too but I haven't commented on them because it hasn't seemed to matter in that context. So anyway, after writing the above I went back through the thread and found post 409 on May 21st (my time). It has 3 quoteblocks. One is fully visible to me. One is fully invisible to me (unless I hightlight text). One is invisible except for the last six words. So I don't think this has anything to do with https. I would guess it's to do with the environment where you are writing/editing your posts.

Thursday, 13th June, 2019

  • 11:15 AM - pemerton mentioned lowkey13 in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    So why are you replying to my four-word (and a link) post, rather than replying directly to the 400-word post? Perhaps because I said the same thing, but more elegantly, and you hope to elicit further elegant responses, by engaging with me rather than with the anti-paladin?Having just re-read lowkey13's post, I think I may have misread - by "my last post" perhaps he mean "my previous post" (the next bit of the post itself is not legible for me because of some text formatting issue, but maybe it's a quote of a previous post?). I feel that reinforces my view that meta-comments (ie on the quality and formal properties of poster's posts, as opposed to what they're actually saying) is generally unproductive. by engaging with me rather than with the anti-paladinWhen I play a FRPG I nearly always play a paladin (or similar archetype). Presumably that's more evidence of something-or-other.
  • 10:07 AM - pemerton mentioned lowkey13 in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    No narration! Only framing!The post you quoted is nearly 400 words, has two footnotes and an edit, and references Hemingway and Henry Miller. I'm not sure there's much profit in critiquing posting styles or trying to diagnose irony. lowkey13 has (by my count) 7 posts since posting "My last post". Is that irony? An atypical use of the word last? (Maybe we should debate the meaning of the word last, or even post - my count of posts doesn't XP/laugh clicks - for several hundred posts.) Or is it just a change of mind and someone saying stuff that they feel like saying?

Wednesday, 12th June, 2019

  • 10:59 PM - darkbard mentioned lowkey13 in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    lowkey13, to a much greater extent than you might imagine, I largely agree with much of your recent postings here, but because of your sarcastic and antagonistic style, I have lost any desire to engage your substance right now.
  • 07:24 PM - Satyrn mentioned lowkey13 in post Why are we okay with violence in RPGs?
    If we were all Americans, here, I could just say "because we're a violent society." Instead, for my flip, sarcastic, cynical answere I'm going to have to go all ST:tNG, and say " because we are an egregiously violent species." (And, you don't get to complain about flip, joking answered to serious questions.) Excellent! Since lowkey13 doesn't get to complain, that lets me go to the front of the line with my complaint. My Complaint: you're stealing my schtick! Please Schtop.

Tuesday, 11th June, 2019

  • 08:18 PM - Gradine mentioned lowkey13 in post Players 'distressed' by gang-rape role-playing game
    ...sion knew him for at least a decade. Made him a face of the con by making him a Room Captain (this point being exactly why some people might not have felt safe going to the con organizer). Predators rely on "good ol' boy" networks to keep their dirty laundry private so they can keep being predators. That's the accountability piece. As for safety, well, I am sure there are cons where Kevin Rolfe will be more than welcome to run his games still. Are the people who would be most traumatized by his "shocking" content going to give pause to joining his games when they see his name on the listing, now? Public awareness makes people safe by giving them the information they need to avoid being traumatized by bad actors, while at the same time raising public accountability for those who might have otherwise given his behavior a pass. "or when we recklessly pursue a moral program of some kind in the wake of such an event" To be clear, the "moral program" in question is "rape = not acceptable". lowkey13 has covered this in better detail, but you are bringing moral relativism to an argument that is mostly centered around sexualized violence. Call both sides equally bad in their extremism is a false equivalence of the dangerous. "People who spring rape scenarios on players and then lie about in an interview with the guy who wrote 'In Defense of Rape' should not be allowed to be in our hobby" is not the moral or extreme equivalent to "LOL great job owning the libs!" and the latter are explicitly counting on well meaning people making that mistake. "I think there is a lot of cruelty being expressed in this thread and people don't see it, because they think they are so correct. Personally I am not a big fan of cruelty." Dannyalcatraz covered this in a point I see you have not responded to yet, in that: Foreseeable repercussions for actions =/= cruelty. I don't really have anything else to add to that.
  • 08:07 PM - Manbearcat mentioned lowkey13 in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    lowkey13 I think you’re more or less saying what I said in my initial post in this thread: Framing and understanding of dramatic device (arc composition and pacing, tropes) are fundamentally tethered. Insofar as they are (and they are), if one wants to fold “understanding and deftness in deployment of dramatic device” into “literary”, then we’re going to have a (self-imposed imo) communication impasse. My take on the lead post is the distinction being drawn is with respect to specific skill in word usage (exposition and elocution or oratory skills broadly...or scripting and then speaking). Again, that is on the hierarchy, but, IMO, much lower down than conflict/situation framing is (which, again, includes what I wrote above).

Monday, 10th June, 2019

  • 06:12 PM - hawkeyefan mentioned lowkey13 in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    lowkey13 My answer on the first page was in response to the thread title and little else. Upon spending more time to read and absorb the OP and some follow up posts, I clarified my stance. I believe that post is on page 2, perhaps 3. I think a lot of the confusion is really to be attributed to people not looking beyond the title. And I understand why....I did it myself...but it’s just a headline in that sense. I agree that clarity has been needed at times, but trying to pin the problems of this thread on one thing seems limited. I think we can all do better. We can grant benefit of the doubt instead of assuming the worst, we can address each other individually rather than trying to lump everyone into one camp or the other, we can clarify or offer a different phrase when needed. I’ve enjoyed a good deal of the discussion at times, and found what others are saying to be interesting and worthwhile....but there’s also been a good deal of nonsense that’s taken up space.

Thursday, 30th May, 2019

  • 09:23 PM - CleverNickName mentioned lowkey13 in post Survivor Magic Jewelry (PART II)- SCARAB OF PROTECTION WINS!
    OK fair enough. So...why don't you like Ioun Stones then? Some give you powers like "You don't need to eat or drink while this clear spindle orbits your head." and "You are fluent in one additional language while this pulsating bit of red jeweled crystal orbits your head. The DM chooses the language bestowed by the stone."The two examples you give are my favorite Ioun Stones. If we were voting for them individually, the Stone of Sustenance would be my hands-down favorite. ( lowkey13 : That would be a pretty fun Survivor contest, now that I think about it: Survivor Specifics: Ioun Stones, Feather Tokens, and Figurines of Wondrous Power!) My beef with the Ioun Stones in this survey is that of the 13 Stones listed in the DMG, 10 of them are just statboosters. Since the bad considerably outnumber the good IMO, the category gets my downvote.

Wednesday, 29th May, 2019

  • 03:47 AM - Maxperson mentioned lowkey13 in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Words I learned today: "diegetic". That's quite a useful word for discussion of the IC/OOC distinction. There's a scene in "High Anxiety" in which ominous music plays, and the main characters (all in a car, on a coastal highway) tense up and look around. A bus comes the other way; the bus passengers are all musicians, an orchestra, playing the ominous music. Hmm. I would have used diuretic. lowkey13 clearly has better wordcraft than I do. :(

Tuesday, 28th May, 2019

  • 03:40 PM - darkbard mentioned lowkey13 in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Bold emphasis mine. I agree with you, but here is the rub, pemerton does not as per his OP. He does not even make that concession that someone could engage in a literary endeavour for their RPGing. This is the issue lowkey13 has been highlighting for a while. You are correct that lowkey13 keeps asserting this. But you are both wrong in your characterization of pemerton's position. Many times now he has articulated that all things being equal, literary presentation can improve the quality of a game, but that caveat requires that the core activity of TRPGing be not in the presentation itself but in the invitation to meaningful engagement of the situation on the part of the PCs, that at its heart the issue is not performance but framing situations that invite protagonism. I'm sure pemerton will correct me if I have inadvertendly mischaracterized his position.
  • 03:13 PM - Sadras mentioned lowkey13 in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    And I think this is fine. If you find the game to be a literary endeavor in this way, and if you are a GM in the style of Matt Mercer, then that is what you should do. I am not saying it can't be these things. All I am saying is it does not have to be these things. Matt Mercer's style of GMing isn't the only way, or the best way: it is just one way to it. Bold emphasis mine. I agree with you, but here is the rub, pemerton does not as per his OP. He does not even make that concession that someone could engage in a literary endeavour for their RPGing. This is the issue lowkey13 has been highlighting for a while.

Wednesday, 22nd May, 2019

  • 01:39 PM - jasper mentioned lowkey13 in post Mike Mearls interview re: Ghosts of Saltmarsh
    I agree with lowkey13 about spreading the books. I use a 33 inch 8 pocket luggage to haul my stuff. Another "core" book and I going have just start carry the basics of what I running that night. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01K0863Q6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Friday, 17th May, 2019

  • 07:20 PM - Draegn mentioned lowkey13 in post What is missing in 5E that you had in other editions?
    lowkey13 Do the tables you miss include the roll a d12 for a date chart? Is this what dual rapier wielding gnome paladins have to do?
  • 06:54 PM - DMMike mentioned lowkey13 in post GMs are an endangered species!
    I don't think there was ever any risk to DMs, but yes, (5E is) a return to DM-centric mechanics, that put more of the pretend 'power' on the DM side of the DM/Player dynamic. It's harder to DM than 4e was (though still arguably easier than 3.x), and requires a different style of DMing. The Player v DM would, a most be 'emulated' - that is, the DM would have to set some bounds for himself to 'let the players win.' PvP would be fine, but would really /need/ a DM supervising it. I'd actually like to see 6E pick up where 4E left off, where some other games currently are, and make the GM role more mechanical - putting more narration in the hands of the players. I would expect it to go well with today's Burger King have-it-your-way players. And with a nod to "game modes," it could either leash or unleash the more creative (gonzo) players. Paizo would probably like that too. (Does Pathfinder have "GMs" or "DMs?") Regarding an earlier comment from lowkey13 - that there are no good DMs (snark noted) - what are today's games doing to make GMing easier, and thus, allowing the GM population to flourish? Not in terms of enabling PCs to co-GM, but having a clear GM role that isn't intimidating.

Thursday, 16th May, 2019

  • 12:54 PM - Maxperson mentioned lowkey13 in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I come from the land of busting chops. This isn’t busting chops. This is the territory of being insulting. And most people don’t take bring insulted sitting down. Except not. I know for a fact that all I'm doing is having some fun, and not even all of it has to do with you at all, and what does is just ribbing. No insults at all. If you are feeling insulted, then you are seeing insult where there isn't any. Satyrn is one of the nicest people here, so I'm certain that she is also just having some fun with a bit of ribbing. lowkey13 I'm not as certain about, but he has a similar humor to mine, so I think he is probably doing the same as Satyrn and I.

Wednesday, 15th May, 2019

  • 01:08 AM - pemerton mentioned lowkey13 in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    pemerton has pretty strongly argued that presentation is not very important and that content is all that really matters. That the scenario regardless of how that scenario is communicated to the players is the most important thing at the table. I have used the words "literary" and "performance" in what I hope are reasonably clear senses. Theatre (typically) involves both. Salon repartee with Oscar Wilde or Dorothy Parker involves both. Conversation with friends typically invovles neither. I've also said - repeatedly, although lowkey13 may not have read those posts - that everything else being equal a mellifluous GM can be a good thing. But obviously much of the time everything is not equal. For example, pre-scripting which is often a precondition of literary quality in word-choice and a precondition for rehearsal of presentation, is at odds with the back-and-forth, the invitation-and-response, that I think is at the heart of RPGing. To frame invitation-and-response as scenario is harmless enough provided not too much weight is put on the latter. But obviously if, by scenario, one is talking about something pre-scripted and rehearsed, then that's not what I'm talking about. If a scenario doesn't speak to the players and engage their interest, and generate an emotional response in them, then my advice to the GM would always be work on your stuff. I would not be suggesting choose a different soundtrack. I’d argue that presentation is equally important and you prove my point. A dm who presents information one ...

Monday, 13th May, 2019

  • 02:12 AM - Maxperson mentioned lowkey13 in post Survivor Magic Jewelry (PART I)- AMULET OF THE PLANES WINS!
    I don't know what the heck is going on. I open the page, click "Last" (and I make sure that the post I am looking at is, indeed, the last in the thread and not simply the last one I've read), copy it to clipboard, paste it into a new message, and then make my vote. Then I come back the next day and there are a handful of posts between the one I copied and the one I voted from. A squad of rapier-wielding Gnome Paladins made lowkey13 do it.


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Wednesday, 26th June, 2019

  • 12:30 AM - Harzel quoted lowkey13 in post My opinion on D&D
    Good. I don't want them banned. I want them dead. Terminated. With extreme prejudice. So, maybe retcon the universe so that they never existed? But then, what would get you up in the morning?

Tuesday, 25th June, 2019

  • 09:49 PM - 5ekyu quoted lowkey13 in post Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented
    I very much would like that card!Double points for purchases on very non-politically correct anniversaries!!!!
  • 09:25 PM - Oofta quoted lowkey13 in post Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented
    It's weird, isn't it, that someone can say that the people who actually experienced something had no idea what they were doing. So ... I guess I have to go with gaslighting at this point? Seriously, you get that you're basically saying that all of us Olds were just too stupid to understand the game we were playing, right? It's pretty amazing that we can even get our truckz out on these here internetz without getting flat tires! Personally, I probably lack the brainpower to complete a sentence, let alone to handle complexities of rules and stuff like that (it's sounds difficult!) but I'm sure someone back then must have been able to read, or something. Naw ... probably not. It's not that they can't understand, it's that they will not. :P
  • 09:23 PM - Ohmyn quoted lowkey13 in post Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented
    It's weird, isn't it, that someone can say that the people who actually experienced something had no idea what they were doing. So ... I guess I have to go with gaslighting at this point? Seriously, you get that you're basically saying that all of us Olds were just too stupid to understand the game we were playing, right? It's pretty amazing that we can even get our truckz out on these here internetz without getting flat tires! Personally, I probably lack the brainpower to complete a sentence, let alone to handle complexities of rules and stuff like that (it's sounds difficult!) but I'm sure someone back then must have been able to read, or something. Naw ... probably not. Yes, I will literally say they were comparatively too dumb to know what they were doing. MMORPG players were also comparatively dumb in the 90s compared to how they are now. It's not that they're dumb as people (although certainly some of them are), it's that they were dumb in regards to how to properly utilize a new game...
  • 09:14 PM - coolAlias quoted lowkey13 in post Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented
    Well, the thing is, it's a lot closer to all the other "lore" rules in OD&D/1e. Why can't monks use flaming oil? Why can't clerics use edged weapons? Why do Druids use scimitars????? Why do any three classes have an armor type between NONE and ANY - Thief, Assassin, and Druid (leather)? Why do thieves get swords, so long as they aren't bastard of two-handed? Why can assassins use any weapon, and thieves can't even use a short bow? Why do monks (KUNG FU FIGHTER) use crossbows? Why is there a poison table, and for almost every class it's a question mark, except assassins it's a YES! What, is it mandatory? And why can only evil clerics use poison, what about the neutral ones? And why are so many classes alignment-gated? Why can't a Cleric be (true) Neutral? I mean, c'mon! True Neutral doesn't mean you love nature! I could keep going, but you get the idea- LORE. RULES. Agreed - in older editions, that's how it was, but even then, at least in my experience, they were ignored far more frequently ...
  • 09:01 PM - Ohmyn quoted lowkey13 in post Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented
    So, again, without prying, I think at least part (but not all) of the divide is when you were exposed to the rules. I did a separate thread checking other people and their experience with "lore" rules (clerics can't/won't use edged weapons, monks can't/won't use oil, druids can't/won't use metal armor) from OD&D/1e, and the experience was the same- that's just the way it was. Because they didn't know how to read the rules and use common sense, hence why they just tossed their arms up and said "That's just the way it is." If you read "Druids can't wear metal armor because it spoils their magic" as saying "It's physically impossible for a Druid to ever put on metal", as opposed to saying that if they put on metal they lose access to their magic, then you're not using very good reading comprehension. This is fine, as tabletop games were new, and people didn't have easy access to large communities or the developers to try and discuss what these things actually meant, so a large percentage of peo...
  • 08:49 PM - Satyrn quoted lowkey13 in post My opinion on D&D
    Wait- you're for it? I'm against it. What are we talking about? We're talking about the latest motion to ban paladins, gnomes and rapiers. We even named the bill after you. But since even you're against it, I see no reason for this committee to move forward on the motion. What's next on our agenda?
  • 08:46 PM - coolAlias quoted lowkey13 in post Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented
    So, again, without prying, I think at least part (but not all) of the divide is when you were exposed to the rules. 2nd AD&D is when I first started playing. I did a separate thread checking other people and their experience with "lore" rules (clerics can't/won't use edged weapons, monks can't/won't use oil, druids can't/won't use metal armor) from OD&D/1e, and the experience was the same- that's just the way it was. To the extent these lore rules are increasingly odd in 5e, I can understand that, and I appreciate that. But to me, the weird thing is people who argue that rules without penalties ... aren't rules. I understand that viewpoint, and I agree with it except for when it comes to forcing player decisions. Compare, for example, to the Paladin oaths. Yes, they swear to uphold these and "won't" break them, except that they might - what if the player wants a redemption arc, or what if it's a dilemma where at least one oath is getting broken no matter what? In general, absolutely the...
  • 08:38 PM - Ohmyn quoted lowkey13 in post Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented
    What you describe as "DM Fiat" is what I would say is "A Player Following the Rules." And not only is there a printed rule in actual rulebooks, but there is a further explanation that this is the way it is, UNLESS your DM allows it. So .... yeah. I mean, I get that people love to argue, and I understand that younger gamers unused to the history of the game are unfamiliar with how rules have worked in the history of D&D, and therefore don't grok the concept of a lore rule, but there it is. I mean, these are the same people that are arguing with me about OD&D and 1e, despite obviously having little idea of what they are talking about.* *I have to admire anyone whose argument is, "Yeah, but no one then understood how rules worked, becase TEH INTERNETZ!" That's either chutzpah, or gaslighting, depending on your perspective. The further explanation is in the Sage Advice, which the community requested because the PHB did not provide the clarification necessary to enforce any limitations on thei...
  • 08:19 PM - coolAlias quoted lowkey13 in post Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented
    What you describe as "DM Fiat" is what I would say is "A Player Following the Rules." And not only is there a printed rule in actual rulebooks, but there is a further explanation that this is the way it is, UNLESS your DM allows it. Just like there may not be anything preventing PVP yet many games manage to run a non- PVP game without a hitch. But here, for some, the rule being actually in print in the rules somehow makes it seem **less binding** than the table no-pvp rule would be. To me, you agreeing to play by the printed rule is as binding as you agreeing to play by the table rule. But apparently to some that's tyranical. I'm not saying it's tyrannical, nor am I saying it's not a rule. The point is that the rule says "won't" - in English, that does NOT mean "can't." Would a player that refuses to abide by this rule be out of line, assuming that the DM did not explicitly exempt them from it? Absolutely. Would a DM that tells a player their druid character absolutely cannot put o...
  • 08:08 PM - Tony Vargas quoted lowkey13 in post On the Origins of Classes (1e, OD&D)
    But what, exactly, Shadowjack or Cugel added? Don't know. I only know that Gygax specifically referred to them. Is there some Lieber influence? Maybe. Don't know. I'd love to see a reference to it! Specifically referred to them like he did Bishop Odo &c when claiming the Cleric as his own?
  • 07:48 PM - Tony Vargas quoted lowkey13 in post On the Origins of Classes (1e, OD&D)
    OD&D Thief.p.4 Might and Magic- Well, Greyhawk. here, we see the ability to read languages and read magical writings..... where did it come from? Well, my best guess is So you don't have any of the insider testimonials you were looking for on that topic? I was just looking at similarities because someone asked. The D&D Thief didn't use innate/powerful shadow-magic like Shadowjack, for instance, in fact, like Cugel, it didn't have innate magic, at all. It did use magic scrolls via Decipher script, which is closer to Lieber's Grey Mouser than the other two. There were other similarities. There were differences, too, The Grey Mouser was a swordsman comparable to Fafhrd, though using a rapier rather than a broadsword - and no early-D&D Thief was the equal of a similar-XP (let alone level) Fighter, that way.
  • 07:32 PM - Ohmyn quoted lowkey13 in post Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented
    Let's be quite clear. If you want to wear metal armor, under RAW or RAI, as a Druid, you need to get permission from the DM. Period. There is no reasonable dispute about that. Now, if you want to use Dexterity as the spellcasting stat for your Magic User, you also need DM's permission. Period. ...are you understanding this. Of course you can change any rule with the DM's permission. That you don't like "lore rules" (a holdover from earlier versions of D&D) doesn't make them, magically, not-rules. You are more than welcome to campaign against it, and play as you want; but people will draw the line at you re-defining rule as not-rules. Good luck! Yes, because if you want to do anything, RAW or RAI, as any class, you need to get permission from the DM. Period. You are correct there is no reasonable dispute about that. The dispute is about whether or not their ruling is RAI, or RAW. More AL DMs will rule that Druids can't wear studded leather (despite the PHB saying it's leather and not me...
  • 07:25 PM - coolAlias quoted lowkey13 in post Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented
    Let's be quite clear. If you want to wear metal armor, under RAW or RAI, as a Druid, you need to get permission from the DM. Period. There is no reasonable dispute about that. But there kind of is - isn't the whole point of this discussion that there isn't anything physically preventing a druid from donning some metal armor? Regardless of what's in the proficiency block. It seems to me to be the main point: "Druids won't wear metal armor" - okay, but my character is putting some on (for whatever purpose), what happens in the game world at this point? Are there repercussions? Is my character literally unable to put it on? And if the answer is there aren't any repercussions and my character can, indeed, put it on, then... do you see? For the record, I don't think druids should be running around in metal armor, but I have to admit that I don't see any reason (RAW) why they *can't* vs. *won't* other than DM fiat.
  • 06:59 PM - Tony Vargas quoted lowkey13 in post On the Origins of Classes (1e, OD&D)
    I love the Lieber, but I have some trouble tracking down specific Mouser references! AFAICT, it's mostly the Aero Games model, with some Zelazny (Jack of Shadows / Shadowjack) and Vance (Cugel the Clever), but I don't doubt that Lieber may have some influence- just don't have a cite or way to verify.You mean like testimonials from some insider back in the day going, "yeah, I totally ripped off _______"?
  • 06:51 PM - Ohmyn quoted lowkey13 in post Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented
    Just pointing out the following things- (1) Apparently, it doesn't matter what anyone says. AL or otherwise. (2) As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, following is the relevant text from the Sage Advice Compendium: A druid typically wears leather, studded leather, or hide armor, and if a druid comes across scale mail made of a material other than metal, the druid might wear it. If you feel strongly about your druid breaking the taboo and donning metal, talk to your DM. Each class has story elements mixed with its game features; the two types of design go hand in hand in D&D, and the story parts are stronger in some classes than in others. Druids and paladins have an especially strong dose of story in their design. If you want to depart from your class’s story, your DM has the final say on how far you can go and still be considered a member of the class To be clear, then, you believe the developer and publisher, except when the RAW disagree with you, and except when the Sage Advice sa...
  • 06:40 PM - 5ekyu quoted lowkey13 in post Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented
    Just pointing out the following things- (1) Apparently, it doesn't matter what anyone says. AL or otherwise. (2) As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, following is the relevant text from the Sage Advice Compendium: A druid typically wears leather, studded leather, or hide armor, and if a druid comes across scale mail made of a material other than metal, the druid might wear it. If you feel strongly about your druid breaking the taboo and donning metal, talk to your DM. Each class has story elements mixed with its game features; the two types of design go hand in hand in D&D, and the story parts are stronger in some classes than in others. Druids and paladins have an especially strong dose of story in their design. If you want to depart from your class’s story, your DM has the final say on how far you can go and still be considered a member of the class To be clear, then, you believe the developer and publisher, except when the RAW disagree with you, and except when the Sage Advice sa...
  • 06:32 PM - Tony Vargas quoted lowkey13 in post On the Origins of Classes (1e, OD&D)
    Joe Fischer created the Ranger. Origin: So, not to put to fine a point on this, but a fan really, really, really wanted to be Aragorn. That should shock no one. MAGIC-USER First Appeared: Chainmail, OD&D (Men & Magic) Gygax?: Sure? I mean, Gygax, Arneson, Perren ... Origin: What came first, the chicken, or the egg? I can see that 'tude with the fighter, it just fights, the fighting hero is an ancient thing. Heck, Gilgamesh, right? But the D&D magic-user is not the same kind of thing, bearing little resemblance to users of magic in myth and legend (who were often divine or supernatural in nature, rather than in learning), nor to the learned /mageia/ of antiquity, nor the classifications of ritual magic into Thaumaturgy and Theurgy. The D&D wizard was often depicted in the regalia of an astrologer, and there were many trapping of Hermeticism (some of which invited accusations of Satanism). But, it's well-known that the D&D casters' "Vancian" roots are in that author's works of sc...
  • 06:15 PM - ART! quoted lowkey13 in post On the Origins of Classes (1e, OD&D)
    Bonus fun fact! The Sage was supposed to a PC class in the Blackmoor supplement (OD&D). Instead, we have a long and detailed sage NPC specialist (pp. 50-51). WHY? Arneson had a Sage Class, and it was in the manuscript. Kask edited to be an NPC. So, yeah, it almost was an Original Class! :) It's fascinating to think what early D&D could easily have been like if various things hadn't been tweaked, rejiggered, or left out. I had no idea the cleric was originally based on a vampire hunter, so the ban on edged weapons now seems especially weird.
  • 06:14 PM - Sacrosanct quoted lowkey13 in post On the Origins of Classes (1e, OD&D)
    Bonus fun fact! The Sage was supposed to a PC class in the Blackmoor supplement (OD&D). Instead, we have a long and detailed sage NPC specialist (pp. 50-51). WHY? Arneson had a Sage Class, and it was in the manuscript. Kask edited to be an NPC. So, yeah, it almost was an Original Class! :) And an incredibly boring one at that 😉. Thank goodness for Kask


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