View Profile: Bedrockgames - Morrus' Unofficial Tabletop RPG News
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Today, 02:12 PM
    Different people have different preferences in gaming. The OP indicates he doesn't seem to mind if other people engage in that kind of violence at the table. He just is personally uncomfortable with it these days. I think there are different cultures of play as well. In the groups I run things with, no one cares about violence, and no one is concerned about stuff mentioned in this thread. But...
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Today, 01:22 PM
    Personally I am totally fine with violence in RPGs and fine with hack N slash style campaigns. I think it depends on what you want though. If I am in a Noir Campaign, I expect more focus on role-play and solving problems in ways that don't involve combat. But nothing wrong with being Conan or Bruce Lee either.
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Today, 01:35 AM
    No, apologies.
    19 replies | 404 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Yesterday, 10:20 PM
    This was the division that existed in the thread in question. Not saying it has to be one or the other.
    19 replies | 404 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 08:46 PM
    Some of those AD&D monsters were brutal and the only guideline I remember using was monster HD and eyeballing things like damage output. My recollection of AD&D (both 1E and 2E) was it could be quite lethal. 3E could also be a lethal system, but there was a lot of ink spent dealing with things like Encounter Levels and having GMs pace encounter levels. So my experience with 3E involved a lot...
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 08:43 PM
    How on earth did we get into bonobos here.
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 08:09 PM
    I am no scientist but this seems quite wrong as well. I mean I did at least minor in philosophy and even there blank slate theory wasn't taken particularly seriously. I don't think celebrims conclusions seem accurate either, but there is at least some amount of truth to people having a natural state (like any other animal) and part of that natural state probably includes a certain amount of...
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 08:05 PM
    Agreed about the natural resistance to taking human life. My comment was just about the military encouraging slurs
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 06:35 PM
    This doesn't sound like it is true, or at the very least not true for a very long time (been googling it and can't find much); do you have sources on this? This doesn't match what I've heard from people in the military I've spoken with.
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 06:29 PM
    I am pretty sure when soldiers go to war militaries have to work against a natural aversion to killing other people. This seems like an extreme simplification. Even if you look at a lot of those ancient armies, many of them were professional, others were class or caste based, not everyone was involved in the fighting.
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 05:56 PM
    Was there a reason for quoting me (just genuinely not sure and not sure if you were inviting a reply)
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 04:09 PM
    This is interesting. My reaction is the opposite. When the GM is speaking in prose and it feels like I need to wait to weigh in, I feel less connected to my character and the setting.
    19 replies | 404 view(s)
    2 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 03:45 PM
    Fair enough, just started a thread.
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    2 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 03:42 PM
    This comes from a topic in another thread where GM description came up. Some posters saw the GM's role as that of narrator, preferring a style of description that felt like prose from a novel, others preferred a more conversational approach. The first approach was more literary, placed emphasis on being evocative and building a sense of atmosphere. The second focused more on plain spoken language...
    19 replies | 404 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 03:06 PM
    I think it is also just a natural thing that people like to see in their entertainment. Violence isn't unique to RPGs. It exists in movies, books, television and even music. I watch a lot of Kung Fu films and a lot of action movies. And I think the reason I like those is probably tied to the same reason I like killing monsters in an RPG or having a campaign that is about a massive sect war. It is...
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 02:59 PM
    Yes, we've been getting sucked into that debate on the thread. We've also been sucked into debates over the meaning of words. I am not denying that. But I think the central conflict is fundamentally over what kinds of descriptions we enjoy from the Gamemaster, and was more at the heart of the conversation. At the very least I think it is a more productive conversation to have. I've entertained...
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 02:42 PM
    I do the same thing actually. But this reasoning doesn't make much sense to me. The presentation is the same, you are just interpreting the presentation differently based on a mechanic. However I think we are getting pretty far afield of the crux of the debate. It really isn't about whether one is more important than the other. It is more about what kind of delivery/presentation/description...
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 11:48 AM
    Why am I getting warned, I didn't bring the other thread up. I was talking about this thread.
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 11:16 PM
    I assumed it was the reason behind Elfcrushers discomfort. But it was also a fairly throw-away comment on my part. Not something I am hellbent on defending.
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 10:06 PM
    Yes I read what you wrote.
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 10:05 PM
    Also others on the thread brought up this topic so figured might as well weigh in on that point. Happy to engage you elf, but not going to do so if you continue to speak to me like this. A modicum of respect or politeness would be appreciated
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 10:02 PM
    I assumed this was the reason behind the discomfort with violence in RPGs
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 08:29 PM
    I think a key difference though is the trolley car problem asks students what they would do, RPGs are asking what the character would do. And the reason it matters in the trolley car problem is because it reveals something about how we value human life. But let’s be clear: the trolley car problem is still just a thought exercise. It still is imaginary. That said how Rob reacts to the trolley...
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 06:06 PM
    I don't disagree. But you are misreading what I am saying. I am saying exactly because what you said is true we should pay more attention to substance than packaging, more attention to a person's ideas than the rhetoric they wrap it up in, and more attention to what a GM is actually saying than the way they are saying it. So I wasn't denying that people pay attention to how things are said. I...
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 11:43 AM
    I have seen this. I've played with great GMs who used a lot of awkward phrasing and had trouble describing things on the fly. This is where the players asking questions really helps things. I generally didn't find these experiences to be diminished by the GM's difficulty. Oratory isn't everything. Substance is often more important to me. Sometimes there is a direct line of causation between...
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 11:33 AM
    If you are looking at cars as an analogy, I think basic information on a table so you can compare systems and settings easy (System, Cost, Complexity, Style//Genre, Rating/Ranking (if applicable), etc).
    44 replies | 1117 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 11:23 AM
    This is my view of it. Not a fan of real world violence but I love action and martial arts movies. Combat in RPGs is cathartic. It isn't against real people or creatures.
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 11:21 AM
    I played through the caves of chaos a few years ago and my impression is the presence of the children and women were actually great RP opportunities.
    150 replies | 4078 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 03:51 AM
    Or I am just not expressing myself well. Sometimes it isn't easy to post responses in these threads. Especially when it is an emotional and controversial subject.
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 03:47 AM
    The player interviewed who I was reacting to never mentioned being a survivor of sexual violence in the interview. It is possible this person is a sexual violence survivor. But I don't think we can leap to that conclusion (unless I missed something in the interview). I did see in the interview that the player was given a job with the con establishing safety guidelines in the wake of this. Again,...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 02:54 AM
    I am not saying people are whiny babies. And in this particular case I have only a vague description of cries being had by all. I don’t know who is a survivor of what in the scenario. But the thing that makes me pause is there is an entire group of adults crying over content that arose in the game. If it were just the person at the table, it would make more sense to me. But I think there is s...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 02:49 AM
    I was giving my reaction of an account of the situation that I had just been pointed to. And that fed into some points about a broader discussion over gaming community issues. All I was saying about it was that particular moment raised my suspicions and it just seemed an odd reaction to me. It doesn’t mean I think the account is flat wrong. The account by the GM also has things in it that raise...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 02:01 AM
    I think people are mixing up what I am saying here. I am not saying a rape survivor crying is abnormal. I am saying a group of people crying in that way, together, as half of them are in a position of authority handling the situation, strikes me as very non-adult. I am saying something about the interview sets off alarm bells for me. You don't have to share that feeling. But I don't have to adopt...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 01:55 AM
    Again, this is projection. I am definitely not xenophobic or racist. Nor am I misogynistic. Obviously I don't share many of the key ideological assumptions present on this thread. But I am on the left and none of the things you accuse me of. And I would just draw a line once again to the degree of moral certainty people seem to be feeling and their ability to be rude and cruel.
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 01:46 AM
    I am not dead set against human decency and I am not a troll.
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 01:07 AM
    People get mugged and violently assaulted all the time too. People are murdered, people have relatives who are close to them murdered. These things feature into games all the time. Someone who was violently robbed is probably going to have strong reactions to imagery that trigger that memory. But in games we routinely have bandits attempt to rob the party or have monsters or NPCs attack the...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 12:53 AM
    You are projecting all kinds of things onto my posts. I haven't attacked you at all. You've been very rude to me most of this thread, because we disagree over how best to handle an incident in the gaming community, and I haven't said anything back to you that I feel is negative. But I will point out, this is exactly the kind of cruelty I am talking about. People think because they believe they...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 12:48 AM
    I am just participating in a discussion. I am not trying to make myself the focus.
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 11:47 PM
    That is not what I said. I said that the reaction which involved other people (and by the player's account it seemed the people handing the situation at the convention) was odd. I can totally understand an individual who was traumatized crying. But I have also seen people use tears to manipulate people. And if you have a group of adults crying over something like this, it makes me wonder what is...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 11:38 PM
    I have to head out but I want to respond to this before I do. It can be very difficult in a thread like this to clearly lay out my position. I am fielding a lot of very negative and hostile responses where I am being forced to answer difficult questions, often framed in a way I would normally object to. First off, I don't think people talking about this guy is cruelty. I think the cruelty comes...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 11:27 PM
    I am not victim blaming. But I do think we don't have to leave our judgements at the door just because someone is a victim or because they have a history trauma. We have to use our own judgments in these situations. And I don't think a person being positioned as the victim, means everything they say is automatically true or all of their reactions are appropriate. Again, like I said, I think the...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 11:24 PM
    I do not recall this thread. It sounds like a thread I might comment on. That doesn't sound like a comment I would make (my major in college was history so I have pretty decent respect for history and history books). I could see myself saying we don't have to draw on real world history for fantasy settings or something to that effect. If you could point me to this thread, I'd appreciate it, since...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 10:50 PM
    Okay, I think I am being fairly mild here. And I am not trying to say bad things about people to bolster a position. There were some things on the thread (like people seeming to embrace public shaming) that troubled me, and I said so. Other things like some of the cruelty in the way people were talking about this guy, also troubled me. When it comes to the crying, I am not trying to attack...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 10:46 PM
    That isn't what I said
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 10:43 PM
    I am friends with Pundit. Doesn't mean I agree with him about everything (in fact I think politically he and I are quite far apart). But I get along with him fine. And I published Arrows of Indra. I also used to be a mod at TheRPGsite. When it comes to publishing people and hiring artists, I am just concerned about the material, not what people think about things or their political views. Though...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 10:26 PM
    Again, I never said I was in favor of character rape. I said I wasn't concerned about, that it concerned me less than things happening to people in the real world. I get people an have their trauma triggered. But I don't think you can structure everything in this world around the possibility that people might have trauma around something.
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 08:54 PM
    People experience all kinds of trauma in the real world that has lasting consequences and can be triggered. I am not particularly interested in seeing a rape scene played out in an RPG, but I think if you go down the road of saying we have to avoid anything that triggers the trauma of a rape survivor in our games and entertainment, then you must also say we have to avoid anything that triggers...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 08:49 PM
    And that is fine. I am happy to have that discussion. I can see the value of the gaming community's issues reaching a broader community. But I was surprised to see the BBC covering an incident at a single game a convention. The headline and the article put focus on the incident. It described that there was a resolution. But I don't think that is the lede here
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 08:46 PM
    I haven't been dancing around my position. I have been answering as directly and honestly as I can this entire thread.
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 08:44 PM
    I am not an edge lord. And I am a very compassionate person. But that doesn't mean I take everything that I see at face value. And one important part of empathy and compassion is not automatically giving into attention seeking behavior. I just think this account has some hallmarks of attention seeking.
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 08:41 PM
    I am not terribly concerned about character rape. I am very concerned about real world rape. But yes, a character being raped in a game concerns me less than a person's life in the hobby being affected forever. Not saying the incident is nothing. I just don't think it warrants the urgency or large reaction it has been getting (I frankly didn't think it was a newsworthy event). Again, I find...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 08:40 PM
    No, that position you just stated isn't extreme. Extreme is not allowing for any other points of view, or assuming anyone who doesn't take the exact same position as you on this issue is a bad actor or toxic. We all come from different backgrounds, have different experiences, and have seen different things. We reach different conclusions about this stuff.
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 08:36 PM
    I am being well meaning. I am also being honest. I think a lot of people here might not be accustomed to honesty of opinion.
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 08:34 PM
    It raises my suspicion a bit of the account. I can't possibly be the only one who finds this kind of behavior a bit child-like (or possible the kind of thing you might see in high schools). Yes, people sometimes cry because they were traumatized. In my experience that isn't the most common reaction. But people also sometimes seek attention and this kind of incident, especially when the people...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 08:08 PM
    Yes, what I meant was, I am not worried about it. Look there are plenty of real world examples of what happens when you use permanent punishments in order to make sure someone doesn't make the world unsafe again. And obviously some actions might require that (if we were talking about murder rather than a person running a game session) things might be different. I am happy to address cruelty when...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 07:57 PM
    I did not see the quote you posted. Which very much changes the nature of the rape (my understanding was the rape scene was implied--but your quote suggested otherwise). I will read it again now that I am home, but I honestly didn't see it the first time. But I want to be clear here, I do not enjoy the condescension you are leveling at me. You are talking to me like I am less intelligent than you...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 07:51 PM
    No. Especially in the case we are discussing because it was game content real world actions. That is a risk that happens when you don't hand out some kind of permanent punishment
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 07:23 PM
    I would not publicly shame them or try to push them out if the hobby. I would probably something in the moment. Again it isn’t so black and white.
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 07:00 PM
    I think I have. My view of it is we are giving into our worse nature online when we publicly shame or go after people like this, or when we recklessly pursue a moral program of some kind in the wake of such an event. I think there is a lot of cruelty being expressed in this thread and people don't see it, because they think they are so correct. Personally I am not a big fan of cruelty.
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 06:57 PM
    I think the hobby is extremely polarized and personally I am not much of a fan of either extreme. I think it is becoming harder and harder for people to have honest disputes and disagreements without folks loading a large quantity of assumptions upon you for simple disagreement. Here you are essentially saying anyone who disagrees with you is toxic or terrible in some other way, and that is the...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 05:58 PM
    It is a subjective sense of course but this topic is getting a lot of discussion on social media among gamers (including this rsther long thread). Any time this sort of thing occurs it tends to become a big topic of discussion. I don’t think ‘all gamers’ care about it. But a very vocal portion of the hobby devoted considerable attention to this stuff it seems
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 05:55 PM
    i don’t know you are suggesting here. But I have a sense. I think this kind of attitude is unfortunately more common in these discussions today. But I knew it was possible the moment I stated an unpopular point of view. Promise I am not coming from a bad place. I just take a different view of things than you.
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 05:23 PM
    Obviously I disagree. I think we are seeing the whole hobby focus on this one individual over one incident and many are calling for him to be banned from other cobs, for him to be pushed out of the hobby, and for reforms like all cons using X cards as a result of all this. I think it is fair to question whether this is moving in a good direction, whether this response is appropriate and whether...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 02:47 PM
    I am not downplaying it. I am saying I can see rape or humor intended to imply the possibility of rape in a game, being considered mature content (correction 18+). Not saying people have to be onboard with it. I am just saying this was advertised as 18+. If I go to a movie and it is advertised as 18+, I wouldn't be totally surprised if there was a rape joke or a rape scene. I wouldn't...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 02:40 PM
    The GM has given a different amount though if Riley's quote is true. I am talking about the quoted section Riley mentions where it says: This is the part I could not find in the blog entry or the post (not saying it isn't there, I just didn't find it on a quick initial reading). Like I said, planning to read it in more depth when I get back
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 02:30 PM
    Hussar, I don't think I look like a ninny at all. I am talking about the situation in general and the posts I have seen where it looks like people are getting far too comfortable with things like public shaming, with global bans from cons for one incident (which I think isn't as cut and dry as people are making it). And again, this is a 200+ post thread with lots of filler and bickering. If there...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 02:25 PM
    Please stop with these kinds of assumptions. We can disagree about something, take our time differently with something, and be more or less reluctant to establish firm benchmarks for when we feel it is appropriate to remove people from cons, without that meaning either of us is a bad person or the kind of GM who engages in questionable behavior. For the record, I don't run games like this guy. I...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 02:21 PM
    I will look over this when I get back (I read through it quickly and didn't find the quote you mentioned, but I wasn't doing a detailed read). However, assuming this is the case, it is exactly why I say we shouldn't rush to judgment or make this a matter requiring urgency. If it is the case that we have different accounts of what happened, that makes it more complicated and harder to assess than...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 02:18 PM
    No, I am saying glven that it was tagged mature, it makes it a lot more likely this was a case of people going in with differing expectations. It suggests the GM was not trying surprise people with something out of bounds, and more that the GM had a different sense of what was within the boundaries. In terms of the players reactions, I would apply the same level of caution to assessing that as I...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 12:59 PM
    Couple of things. First, as far as I am aware, there was no 'in scene rape'. This was an implied rape because they awakened handcuffed and their bums were sore. This could have been anything from the characters were raped to hangover style humor. In terms of maturity content, I think a scene where players awaken in this state is within the boundaries of mature content. Whether that is...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 12:56 PM
    On the one hand you are saying his life is unaffected, on the other you are saying it is good that he is being eliminated from the hobby. Not being able to participate in something you enjoy, is an impact on one's life. Also this isn't his job. This is a leisure activity. I don't think the analogy holds well here.
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 12:53 PM
    Well, generally I think we should not rush to form judgements in these cases. I don't know about you, but it actually takes me a while to puzzle through the morality of events like this, and to think through the different angles. The urgency of the response is one of the things I think will lead to less good outcomes. In terms of when I would say it is a good thing? I don't think the internet...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 12:46 PM
    Point me a link and I will read it
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 12:19 PM
    What I see in a lot of these incidents is people using another persons perceived bad behavior as an excuse for cruelty. Just look at the language of your paragraph. Was he being mean? I didn't get that impression. I got the impression he may have been clueless or been behaving like a bit of an ass trying to push boundaries. But I can also see a scenario here where this is just a misguided attempt...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 12:12 PM
    Fair enough, I missed the quotations (though in fairness I am not writing a news article :)). But, and not picking on Danny here because I find him to be one of the most reasonable posters in these discussions, but here is one example that to me seems to be defending mob mentality (it was in response to a poster arguing that public shaming is a problem): There have definitely been defenses...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 12:02 PM
    What I see is a lot of people online calling for this person to be banned, and calling for large changes to how the hobby functions, over a single incident. One where the game was marked mature. Like I said, the con can do what it wants. If they feel he crossed a line, then by all means, that is their judgment. But I do think is a mob thing going on here (and many posters are freely talking about...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 10:18 AM
    I am very surprised to see gamers defending 'mob mentality'.
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 10:16 AM
    Getting details right is largely what it is about though. I used to get in great trouble if I got lazy and some minor fact was slightly off. I used to be a freelance reporter, and even on a story like that, I was always expected to expend the same amount of effort and due my due diligence contacting sources and verifying. It isn't unique to this story but I am just a bit surprised how often I see...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 01:00 AM
    I was saying the news coverage was poorly handled in my view
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 07:18 PM
    I don't play much Grim Dark, and have never played Warhammer or Zweihander. But I have played Dark Sun. I mean the villages will look different and have different kinds of denizens and culture, but I am not going to approach how I describe things differently in terms of constructing what I say (if that makes sense). Again, I tend not to talk like a Narrator, so there isn't really a need for me to...
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 01:29 PM
    I think you can go either way here. If players know what a Githyanki is, then saying 'it is a Githyanki', gets to the point really fast. If they don't know what it is, describing it in more detail is the better way to go. I want to be clear here that this isn't about avoiding descriptions, at least not for me. I do describe things. It is just I don't approach my descriptions like I am author...
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 12:37 PM
    My thoughts on this are the game sounds like a very odd thing to run at a con. That said the two news reports I saw on it, looked very poorly handled (like they were primarily relying on a handful of tweets and not investigating the matter and interviewing everyone they could who was involved). I think Cons can do what they want, and if they think he is a problem GM, they can remove him. Not...
    419 replies | 16534 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 10:58 PM
    Max, I am not going to rehash this with you, because I think the basic arguments have already been made by us and I don't think you are demonstrating any willingness to listen to my points on the topic. But I do want to reiterate a central one: "especially" is a very important word in that definition, and you are completely dismissing it in order to make an argument that all words are literature....
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 08:52 PM
    This question has already been asked. I used to run Ravenloft exclusively, and I bought into all the advice in the line that basically made the point you are making here: Use very evocative language to create atmosphere in horror. My answer is a bit involved. First, if your players respond to that, I say go for it. But it is really important to understand not all players respond to this at all...
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 07:01 PM
    Again Max we have already hashed over this discussion and it isn't this simple, and we clearly are not going to settle it here. But I've made several responses to the rhetorical and definitional arguments you are using. Problem one: you use the first line from the first definition of literature that crops up on a google search. Problem two, you ignore important qualifiers in the definition. You...
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 05:59 PM
    We've had this discussion already Max and I don't think you made the case at all. Further, I think any discussion like this where 'literary' means anything written, is kind of pointless because if that is the case, well it doesn't really matter does it? Because no matter what you do, it will be literary. However, the truly important thing here is we are not talking about written information. We...
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 02:01 PM
    You and others are treating this true before it has even been established it is the case. I don't think there is reason to believe literary techniques will a) Translate smoothly into GM narration and b) establish the scene more clearly in the mind's eye of the player. Just listen to how people talk when they tell a story, and how people engage them by asking clarifying questions. It isn't...
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 12:49 PM
    Except we are speaking at the table, not reading prose generally (and even if you are literally reading from boxed text, you are saying it aloud). I don't think the effect is the same when spoken in the context of a dynamic conversation at the table, as it is when you have prose on a page. Prose isn't what is called for. Doesn't mean you won't get interesting dashes or flavor or see nice word...
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 12:31 PM
    I think you are just making assumptions now...also I didn't say I preferred 1 over 2. I said 1 has more information, and there are definitely more analytically minded players who don't care about the flavorful description as much as they care about the info. And I don't think they are a small minority in our hobby. That said, you are right, these two descriptions are both pretty...
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 04:12 AM
    But that is totally dependent on the player. I keep seeing you assert 'description x is more y'. I know from experience, and from trying to talk in the style of #2 to my players, many players are less interested in 2 than they are in 1. Some players are a little more analytical and they want the kind of details you have in 1 (and they don't particularly care how well crafted your description is...
    1465 replies | 38015 view(s)
    0 XP
More Activity
About Bedrockgames

Basic Information

About Bedrockgames
About Me:
Own Bedrock Games (Bedrockgames.net).
Location:
MA
Disable sharing sidebar?:
No
Sex:
Male
Age Group:
31-40
Social Networking

If you can be contacted on social networks, feel free to mention it here.

Facebook:
Bedrock-Games
My Game Details

Details of games currently playing and games being sought.

State:
Massachusetts
Game Details:
Running Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate
More information:
http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com

Statistics


Total Posts
Total Posts
5,258
Posts Per Day
1.48
Last Post
Why are we okay with violence in RPGs? Today 02:12 PM

Currency

Gold Pieces
20
General Information
Last Activity
Today 02:22 PM
Join Date
Friday, 25th September, 2009
Product Reviews & Ratings
Reviews Written
0

2 Friends

Showing Friends 1 to 2 of 2
My Game Details
State:
Massachusetts
Game Details:
Running Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate
More information:
http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com
Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Sunday, 16th June, 2019


Thursday, 13th June, 2019


Wednesday, 12th June, 2019


Tuesday, 11th June, 2019


Monday, 10th June, 2019


Sunday, 9th June, 2019



Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Page 1 of 7 1234567 LastLast

Wednesday, 12th June, 2019


Tuesday, 11th June, 2019

  • 11:08 PM - Hussar mentioned Bedrockgames in post Players 'distressed' by gang-rape role-playing game
    The truly frustrating thing about these conversations is we have to spend so much time on hypothetical situations that the actual issue never gets dealt with. I mean when some guy can get staggeringly drunk, stalk a woman, assault security staff and we STILL have to debate whether it’s okay to socially sanction him, it just staggers belief. Tell you what. Go into your workplace and begin loudly telling rape jokes to a group of colleagues. See what happens. Why should this be any different? The hyperbole here is baffling. Comparing being imprisoned for years with not being able to run games at cons? Seriously? That’s the point of equivalency? Bedrockgames, instead of making allusions, why not actually quote the things that trouble you? Because right now all it looks like you’re doing is victim blaming. Even if that’s not your intention, that is what it looks like.
  • 01:41 PM - Hussar mentioned Bedrockgames in post Players 'distressed' by gang-rape role-playing game
    Heh, irony is a wonderful thing. Bedrockgames is complaining that folks are rushing to judgement and we're negatively impacting this guy's life without learning the facts all the while not bothering to actually spend any time learning the facts that are IN THIS THREAD. That's a whole lot of irony right there. So, folks, the moral of the story is, actually do a bit of due diligence before cramming your foot in your mouth and looking like a ninny.
  • 12:22 PM - Hussar mentioned Bedrockgames in post Players 'distressed' by gang-rape role-playing game
    Bedrockgames - did you read the blog posting that was linked? Or did you skip a bunch of pages. Because, I think that you might be missing a LOT of information here.

Monday, 10th June, 2019

  • 04:03 PM - lowkey13 mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I don’t think anyone’s advocating for no description. So, let's see if we can understand the fundamental disconnect between the people on this thread again, using this post and the prior one by @Bedrockgames as the illustrative examples. Using this post, and the following quote from the prior post- "It is just I don't approach my descriptions like I am author writing a book or a dramatic narrator. I approach them like I would how I'd describe things if I was telling you about something that happened to me that day. I use a lot of colloquial language in my descriptions for example." This really gets to the fundamental issue of why, to quote Cool Hand Luke, there is a failure to communicate. It all starts with the OP. So let's look at the OP again; I will quote it in full, with emphasis added BY ME as I think appropriate- Some recent threads have discussed aspects of GM and player narration in RPGing. Which hase prompted me to start this thread. My answer to the question in the thread title is a firm No. RPGing requires narration: GMs describe situations, and players declare actions for their PCs that respond to those situations. But I don't think the literary quality of that narrat...

Sunday, 9th June, 2019

  • 07:33 PM - Imaro mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Let me ask a question to pemerton, Hawkeye, Bedrockgames and Aldarc. Would you use the same words/language/etc. to describe a remote village in the mountains for say a Ravenloft campaign vs a Four color superhero game like Icons? let's assume good faith in that the Icons village isn't supposed to be haunted or anything tht would make it more Ravenloft-esque.... EDIT: Meant hawkeyefan ...
  • 03:26 PM - Maxperson mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    An automechanic will have a range of vocabulary that "falls outside of normal, everyday conversation," but I don't think that we would credibly accuse them for using the technical jargon of their field as part of their conversation as speaking with "literary language." That would be ridiculous. This is because we can recognize that they are not speaking with any sense of sculpted prose or word play, but with prevalent words of their field. But neither are those mechanics speaking conversational English, which is what Bedrockgames says he wants.
  • 08:03 AM - Hussar mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...ges on the technical definition of “few” or will you simply accept my use?) of the words used are uncommon. That doesn’t make them unknown. So I’m not going to accept this “10% of the description was useless” because that’s just silly. Honestly....D&D players are gonna balk at the word “wield”? Or “gaunt”? Come on. Sorry, you're right, they aren't unknown. But, my point being, they aren't what you'd use in conversation either. Would you actually use the words "wield" or "gaunt" in a conversation? "A gaunt man wielding a gun robbed a liquor store" is not something you will ever hear in a conversation. You certainly might hear "A thin man armed with a gun" or "carrying a gun", but "wielding"? That's not going to be used. The way I'm seeing it, we've got a spectrum with high art prose on one end (think Tolkien, high Gygaxian, H. P. Lovecraft - if we want to use genre literature) and what you'd hear in a conversation or in the news on the other. As far as I can tell, Bedrockgames is arguing for a level of prose where "an orc with a sword enters the room" is about as much description as he wants. You gave a Githyanki description that is much further along the scale, as did I with the description of the Vengaurak. As far as pemerton goes, I really have no idea where on the scale he's coming down on since he's playing arpeggios up and down the scale so long as he can keep pretending that there is any real disagreement going on. So, no, it's not "10% of the description was useless". Sorry, I never meant that as the take away. Not at all. It's that the presence of that 10% slides the description away from the "pure conversation" end of the scale and further (and, really, where it's 10% of the words, pretty far actually) down towards the "high art" end of the scale.
  • 05:41 AM - pemerton mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    But I’m beginning to see why we’re all having a hard time coming to a consensus....it’s because we actually seem to have one, it’s just that what I see as pretty basic communication, you’re viewing as carefully wrought wordplay.I don't agree that there's a consensus: I can't really tell what Maxperson thinks, but Imaro and Hussar have made claims about the need for entertaining/evocative narration that I think clearly contradict the position I asserted in the OP. But one complicating fact pertains to vocabularly: eg I wouldn't regard cadaverous as a word to describe a Githyanki as especially remarkable or a-conversational, but Hussar probably would, and maybe Bedrockgames also. What counts as every day vocabularly among a group of RPGers is pretty highly variable and contingent on a range of factors (social background/status, educational levels, occupation, etc). I'm a humanities/social sciene academic (philosophy and law) and many of the people I talk to on a regular basis (ie the people I work with, my students, etc) are lilkewise, or are aspiring to be. So I think my every day vocaublary is probably richer than the New York Times. This is why I have brought it back to what are we aiming for? What counts as success, as good RPGing? What should a GM focus on? And I'm saying situation - framing, action, consequence - not beauty or evocation in narration. Whereas those other posters disagree.

Saturday, 8th June, 2019

  • 07:54 AM - pemerton mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Equivocation requires intent. It's an attempt to conceal the truth, which requires the intent to conceal the truth, or to avoid committing, which requires the intent to avoid committing. There's no way around it. A wrong conclusion is just a wrong conclusion without other intent to change things.As I posted upthread, I don't know what your field is. I don't know how many logic or philosophy seminars you have attended. But the standard word used to describe a fallacious or sophistic argument that superficially appears valid, but in fact is not valid because a key term carries different meanings in different sentences of the argument, is equivocation. And the cognate verb is equivocate. That is what Bedrockgames and Aldarc are talking about. The fact that you don't notice that you're doing it doesn't make your argument any more valid.

Friday, 7th June, 2019

  • 04:58 PM - Aldarc mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Soooo, the ebb and flow of conversation isn't "moving the goalposts."Why would it be? What particular post would it be moving? I haven't, either, but that doesn't prevent you and others here of falsely accusing me of equivocation. Aaaaaand, not. I also have not used ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing. Keep up the talking point, though. If you use it enough, you might just get someone to believe your false accusations. Bedrockgames already demonstrated quite convincingly how you were equivocating with your terms at least 50 pages back. You're just upset because you got caught doing it and others in this thread likewise haven't been fooled by the word games you like to use to win arguments. There have even been a number of people who are arguing in favor of TTRPGs as a literary endeavor who have likewise called you out on it. Take the "L" and move on.

Tuesday, 28th May, 2019

  • 02:25 PM - darkbard mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Is there a collection of, say, 15 words that can impel the gravity (say, better depict the steep angle of descent down the Falling Action roller coaster) better than any other collection of 15 words, where both collections of words conveys the situation appropriately (appropriately here meaning, inform players sufficiently that they can make intuitive action declarations for their PCs). For my part, the answer to this question is yes, the collection of words that best invites the players to action, directly and explicitly, is the collection of words best suited to convey the situation. In such a way, wordcraft of the "literary" sort articulated by pemerton can impede direct and explicit communication, for it puts artfulness (including, perhaps, subtlety, implication, and other techniques thay may mask clarity for effect) to the fore. In this way, I see my position aligning pretty closely with that of pemerton and Bedrockgames. One last post. We're all familiar with the axiom: "Its not what you say, its how you say it." We are social animals. We are evolved to respond to inflection, tone, countenance. But I don't agree with the first part in the slightest, in any arena, but especially in the conversation of TTRPGs. Obviously its "what you say" in TTRPGs. But, there is also an aspect of "how you say it." Then, there is the significantly important aspect of GMing; "how deftly you integrate it (within the particular game's paradigm)." I think these three components are what is in play in this conversation. For my mileage, each are important, but there is a hierarchy of import. Personally, I'm putting the hierarchy as follows: 1) How deftly you integrate it. 2) What you say. 3) How you say it. I think I agree with your hierarchy here. Of course there is a role for "how you say it." But that role is, to my taste, secondary (or tertiary here :) ) to the situation as in...
  • 05:43 AM - pemerton mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    So let's focus on what the actual lines of dispute are, rather than fight endlessly over the definition of literary.Yeah, I didn't expect this thread to be a debate about the meaning and scope of the term "literary". I thought it might be a discussion about whether or not wordcraft is a principal or essential means of evoking emotional responses in a RPG. The point of my OP is to deny such a claim. On the other hand, I believe that Hussar affirms such a claim, as does Imaro. I'm frankly not sure what Maxperson thinks about it. Everyone agrees with you @pemerton.This isn't true at all. Unless you've changed your mind, upthread you asserted that the use of wordcraft and associated performance is a key means of promoting emotional responses in RPGing. Which is what I am disagreeing with. ************************ On the issue of "playstyle arguments/agendas", which has been flagged by Bedrockgames and darkbard: I think (and hope) it's obvious that my OP is putting forward a view about where the aesthetic merit and aeshetic power of RPGIng lies, and therefore a view about what the point of RPGing ultimately is. I recognise that others will disagree. That's not uncommon in critical discussions. I'm not 100% sure that I agree with Eagleton that these "deep structures" of aesthetic evaluation correlate to, or express, social power relations and any resultant ideologies. That's a further, and harder, question. But as I posted upthread in reply to Aldarc, I do think that these aesthetic preferences can be connected to broader trends in RPG design and RPG play. Some of Hussar's posts (about "plot wagons", and criticising player passivity) seem to me to imply a conception of RPGing where the GM brings the story and the players bring the expressive energy. Now maybe that's wrong, and Hussar is welcome to correct me if it is. But that conception of RPGing that I'm seeing there, e...

Monday, 27th May, 2019

  • 03:53 PM - darkbard mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Attempting to pigeonhole "literary" or "literature" into objective, unassailable categories is a fool's errand. As hawkeyefan points out several times, pemerton has been consistent in his use of a definition for this particular discussion, and he has clarified that definition for the purpose of this discussion when needed. I think what qualifies as literary/literature and why can make for fascinating analysis, but that is not what's happening here in this thread, at least not any longer. I also do think Bedrockgames is on to something when he says, ultimately, this discussion now has become a mask for playstyle arguments. Of course it has. This is inevitable, for aesthetic judgments are inseperable from "our deeper structures of belief," as literary critic Terry Eagleton calls them: If it will not do to see literature as an 'objective', descriptive category, neither will it do to say that literature is just what people whimsically choose to call literature. For there is nothing at all whimsical about such kinds of value-judgement: they have their roots in deeper structures of belief which are as apparently unshakeable as the Empire State building. What we have uncovered so far, then, is not only that literature does not exist in the sense that insects do, and that the value-judgements by which it is constituted are historically variable, but that these value-judgements themselves have a close relation to social ideologies. They refer in the end not simply to private taste, but to the assumptio...
  • 10:20 AM - Hussar mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Sorry, Aldarc, but, which definition are YOU using? Until such time as you and Bedrockgames actually tell me which definition you want to use, then we can't actually have any sort of meaningful discussion. Are we going to use Maxperson's broader definition or not? Pick one and we'll stick with that. You say that I'm making a category error. That's only true if we're using the broader definition. And, well, I do think it's a complete dodge to say, "Well, pacing exists in other media, so, it's not literary". That's not true. It IS literary, as well as other things. Now, since TV, movies, books, short stories, etc, all have pacing concerns, then, it's fair to say that any narrative form (which is what I was arguing with Bedrockgames about, not simply literary form) will have pacing concerns. They have to. Now, Bedrockgames claims that he does not pay any attention to pacing whatsoever in his adventure creation, nor during play. Now, I have to take him at his word for that, but, to me, that sounds like a terrible game. And "ignore pacing" is advice I would never ...
  • 10:03 AM - Aldarc mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...bout while ignoring. This is because story pacing is also an integral part of storytelling in oral stories, theater, television, film, and video game media. Moreover, the issues of story pacing will also be unique to each particular medium. How to appropriately pace your book's story will differ from how to appropriately pace your theatrical play, or your video game, or your movie, or your serialized television show,* or your TTRPG game sessions. This is something that most people recognize outside of this niche web forum. * This issue of pacing in television has also changed with the advent of online original produced by streaming services like Netflix and Amazon. These services have changed how we watch shows, which changes how these shows are produced, scripted, and paced. E.g., A cliffhanger makes less sense at the end of a midseason episode of a Netflix original when you will immediately watch the next episode of an entire season that has been uploaded at once. So, Bedrockgames, Aldarc, and anyone else who cares to weigh in, would you PLEASE define your terms. What do YOU mean by "literary". Not, playstyle or any other dodge, or comparisons to baking a cake. What do YOU mean, and we'll discuss using THAT definition. Because, boys and girls, until such time as you folks want to plant the goal posts, this conversation is just going to keep circling the same rabbit hole. Maxperson is, if we use his definition of literary, 100% correct. But, if we use pemerton's definition, he's 100% wrong. So, which definition do you want us to use? Pick one, stick with it, and we can move on.There are two definitions that have been floated and utilized in this thread. (And often with the equivocation that Bedrockgames has rightfully criticized.) So in regards to one definition: You agree, for example, that if we take the position that literature pertains to "higher literature" (per its cognitive association, connotation, and common parole) then RPGs probably would ...
  • 03:27 AM - Hussar mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Yeah. Again, the last six or seven pages of this "discussion" has all been because folks absolutely refuse to pin down what definition of "literary" they would like us to use. If Literary=high art, then this discussion is, for all intents and purposes, over because we all agree that RPGing isn't meant to be high art. So, Bedrockgames, Aldarc, and anyone else who cares to weigh in, would you PLEASE define your terms. What do YOU mean by "literary". Not, playstyle or any other dodge, or comparisons to baking a cake. What do YOU mean, and we'll discuss using THAT definition. Because, boys and girls, until such time as you folks want to plant the goal posts, this conversation is just going to keep circling the same rabbit hole. Maxperson is, if we use his definition of literary, 100% correct. But, if we use pemerton's definition, he's 100% wrong. So, which definition do you want us to use? Pick one, stick with it, and we can move on.

Sunday, 26th May, 2019

  • 04:57 PM - Aldarc mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...hing as being "literary." Yes, they ARE literary notions, but they are notions also found in other media and not exclusive to literature. We cannot categorically assert that because RPGs can share these overlapping notions that RPGs are therefore literature, i.e., categorical errors. Would help if we explained this to you by drawing you a picture? Maybe a venn diagram with overlapping concentric circles? I'm not entirely sure how this is controversial. Let's spot the logical fallacy: X is a technique that can be found in literature. Film also contain X technique. Therefore films are literature. Dogs have four legs. Cats also have four legs. Therefore cats are dogs. Cakes contain eggs and flour. Pasta also contain eggs and flour. Therefore pasta is a type of cake. I guess it was a deliberate Red Herring after all, as well as a False Equivalence.Or none of the above because you are misusing informal fallacies as the basis of your argument. Thankfully, Bedrockgames has the right of my post.

Saturday, 25th May, 2019

  • 09:13 PM - Maxperson mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...lcome respite, it’s crowded from people seeking shelter from the rain. It’s run by a friendly innkeeper who notices things and whose serving maid, Tansy, is likely his daughter. There’s the smell of the stew, and the entrance of an enigmatic figure. It takes about a minute and a half to deliver, and the players are going to forget paragraph one by the time you finish two or hit three. If the players are forgetting what you are describing, it's way too long. Doesn’t all of this detail relate to your initial point? Presentation and interesting description being as important as the content? Too much presentation comes at the expense of content. You are describing lots of content there, and then the players are forgetting things before you reach the end of the super long narration. In the second bit, the description is pretty bare bones. It’s an inn, it’s crowded due to heavy rain. In walks a man with an eyepatch. And this is too light for my tastes. It's probably just fine for @Bedrockgames, though. I’d likely use something like the first approach if I wanted to simply set a scene, and then maybe move toward some kind of action or decision. My descriptions would probably be one of those paragraphs in length. Two maximum if I was describing something grand or immense. The second would be if I wanted to get right to the decision point. Which method I’d use would depend on what I wanted to get out of the session, based on my and the players’ desires. See, for me, one of your paragraphs is getting right to the decision point. Based on this and other recent comments, it sounds to me like you’re much more in agreement with the OP than it seemed. You seem unconcerned with making the narration as high quality as possible, and that you’re more concerned with conveying the necessary details. Except that I do want to provide interesting narration. I'm somewhere in the middle of the OP and your example.
  • 03:40 PM - Aldarc mentioned Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I honestly am having a difficulty of following the obfuscated use of "literary" in this thread. At times it seems equated variously with "text," "anything written" (not to be confused with 'text'), "narrative/story," "oral performance," "anything spoken/conversation," etc. The goal posts keep getting moved and obscured for the sake of claiming that whatever transpires in RPGs is "literature" or "literary." I can definitely sympathize with why Bedrockgames is frustrated by all of the equivocation that transpires in trying to justify RPG as literary. I will say that attempting to claim TTRPGs as a literary endeavor shortchanges what makes TTRPGs unique as a storytelling medium. Yes, there will be overlap between TTRPG storytelling with literary storytelling, oral storytelling, performative storytelling, cinematic storytelling, video game storytelling, etc. Why? Because stories often follow patterns in human culture but many of these media are exceptionally new to human civilization (e.g., film, TV serials, comic books, video games, etc.), and we are only beginning to unravel how they are distinctive from prior modes of literature and theater. And I think that attempting to claim TTRPGs as a form of literature or as incorporating literary techniques (which some seem to equate to broader storytelling techniques) is attempting to turn TTRPGs into something that they are not.


Page 1 of 7 1234567 LastLast
No results to display...
Page 1 of 97 123456789101151 ... LastLast

Saturday, 15th June, 2019

  • 10:35 PM - dragoner quoted Bedrockgames in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    This was the division that existed in the thread in question. Not saying it has to be one or the other. As written, it comes off as semantics. I know the most basic/earliest examples of play given in books such as Basic D&D and Understanding Traveller, starts with the GM giving a description (narration) and goes to a Q & A between the GM and players, which on the whole would be a conversation. If either plain or florid language is used is due to someone's vocabulary, or their changing it up to give voice to an NPC.
  • 09:55 PM - dragoner quoted Bedrockgames in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    This comes from a topic in another thread where GM description came up. Some posters saw the GM's role as that of narrator, preferring a style of description that felt like prose from a novel, others preferred a more conversational approach. The first approach was more literary, placed emphasis on being evocative and building a sense of atmosphere. The second focused more on plain spoken language and interaction between the players and GMs as the descriptions unfold. This is a simplification of the topic, but that is the basic division. And obviously there are many approaches in between and from totally different angles. I am curious what other posters think about how a GM should sound when describing things to players. False Dilemma fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Thursday, 13th June, 2019

  • 09:46 PM - Elfcrusher quoted Bedrockgames in post Why are we okay with violence in RPGs?
    Agreed about the natural resistance to taking human life. My comment was just about the military encouraging slurs I would be surprised if there's anything formal on paper (at least that's discoverable.) But I would be equally surprised if drill sergeants during time of warfare were not unofficially encouraged to refer to the enemy in dehumanizing terms. Not because I think poorly of the military, or the people in it, but because it makes sense to do so, and organizations take on a life of their own. Same reason that corporations full of otherwise decent people do unconscionable things.
  • 08:20 PM - GrahamWills quoted Bedrockgames in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    Some posters saw the GM's role as that of narrator, preferring a style of description that felt like prose from a novel, others preferred a more conversational approach It almost goes without saying that this is a good thing -- people preferring different styles. But then this thread would be quite pointless, so I'll elaborate a bit. However, I do think the biggest effect is what you like. Outside of roleplaying, I like lyrical descriptive novels. So I read LOVE IN THE AGE OF CHOLERA and MOBY DICK, and loved both of them. My wife, an English Lit. major, dislikes MOBY DICK for the same reason I like it, and I'd never recommend the former book to her. In poetry it's the same. I don't see any reason to believe it's not the same for role playing games -- people like different things. However, I do think that genre has an effect of what people expect. It might be that it's just that people who like more evocative descriptions prefer some genres, but thinking over my experiences, I think it's also the ...
  • 07:14 PM - Elfcrusher quoted Bedrockgames in post Why are we okay with violence in RPGs?
    This doesn't sound like it is true, or at the very least not true for a very long time (been googling it and can't find much); do you have sources on this? This doesn't match what I've heard from people in the military I've spoken with. My original source was my grandfather, describing his training for WWII. However, this is the first thing that popped up for me on Google: https://www.sfgate.com/science/article/THE-SCIENCE-OF-CREATING-KILLERS-Human-2514123.php. (EDIT: I just realized you only quoted the second half of my post. No, it doesn't mention the derogatory slurs thing. I'll go look for that. EDIT2: Nope, first page of results on first search didn't turn up anything. But I'll continue to believe my grandfather.) Pithy quote: The FBI discovered a similar problem among law enforcement officers through the early 1960s: a startling number were refusing to fire at suspects even when other lives were endangered. Even those who fired their weapons were not necessarily trying to kill -- it is ...
  • 06:48 PM - lowkey13 quoted Bedrockgames in post Why are we okay with violence in RPGs?
    Was there a reason for quoting me (just genuinely not sure and not sure if you were inviting a reply) I was thinking about your comment, re: the media, and dragoner's comment, directly above it. I'm not looking at specific things, more of a gestalt.
  • 04:57 PM - lowkey13 quoted Bedrockgames in post Why are we okay with violence in RPGs?
    I think it is also just a natural thing that people like to see in their entertainment. Violence isn't unique to RPGs. It exists in movies, books, television and even music. I watch a lot of Kung Fu films and a lot of action movies. And I think the reason I like those is probably tied to the same reason I like killing monsters in an RPG or having a campaign that is about a massive sect war. It is exciting and cathartic. It also creates very high stakes (the threat of character death for example). Well .... Okay, so I've been looking at what everyone has been saying (and a LOT of good stuff in here), including dragoner and his very thoughtful, albeit gut-punchy comment above yours (I don't know how else to refer to it ...) ... and I'm thinking something along the lines of the following: It is interesting, to me, that the following two statements are GENERALLY true, if not true in all aspects: 1. The media I consume is much, much, much more comfortable with the depiction of violence. I mean- sur...
  • 04:20 PM - Imaro quoted Bedrockgames in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    This is interesting. My reaction is the opposite. When the GM is speaking in prose and it feels like I need to wait to weigh in, I feel less connected to my character and the setting. I can't comment on your experiences only my own and the reason I feel less connected with conversational narration because it lacks atmosphere or mood which is definitely something I as my character want described and because the back and forth questions to get basic information it often devolves into is hard for me to correlate to anything along the lines of how my character takes in info or even his thought or action processes. It feels weird to have to get basic information piecemeal and in a back and forth with the GM. For me when the GM is narrating, it feels much more as if my character is first taking it in, it's what he initially sees, smells, hears, his impressions, etc.
  • 04:09 PM - lowkey13 quoted Bedrockgames in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    This comes from a topic in another thread where GM description came up. Some posters saw the GM's role as that of narrator, preferring a style of description that felt like prose from a novel, others preferred a more conversational approach. The first approach was more literary, placed emphasis on being evocative and building a sense of atmosphere. The second focused more on plain spoken language and interaction between the players and GMs as the descriptions unfold. This is a simplification of the topic, but that is the basic division. And obviously there are many approaches in between and from totally different angles. I am curious what other posters think about how a GM should sound when describing things to players. While I wish you had framed it differently, using different words (see what I did there), I will try to just state my position: First, this isn't about RPGs in general; this is about TTRPGs.* Second, this isn't about all TTRPGs, I am referring to "mainstream" TTRPGS (for lack of ...
  • 03:33 PM - Imaro quoted Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I do the same thing actually. But this reasoning doesn't make much sense to me. The presentation is the same, you are just interpreting the presentation differently based on a mechanic. However I think we are getting pretty far afield of the crux of the debate. It really isn't about whether one is more important than the other. It is more about what kind of delivery/presentation/description people want. Some of us want a style that is natural, doesn't affect the manner or techniques of novel writing, some of us do want a more literary style of description. We've debated the meanings of these various terms. But I think if we make an attempt to understand the key difference arising, it centers around what kind of descriptions do you want from the GM and do you want them to be more or less literary (i.e. should they be evocative, sound like novel prose, employ literary techniques, etc or should they be more conversational and plain spoken). Well if you start a thread around that premise I'd be more t...
  • 02:43 PM - Imaro quoted Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I do the same thing actually. But this reasoning doesn't make much sense to me. The presentation is the same, you are just interpreting the presentation differently based on a mechanic. However I think we are getting pretty far afield of the crux of the debate. It really isn't about whether one is more important than the other. It is more about what kind of delivery/presentation/description people want. Some of us want a style that is natural, doesn't affect the manner or techniques of novel writing, some of us do want a more literary style of description. We've debated the meanings of these various terms. But I think if we make an attempt to understand the key difference arising, it centers around what kind of descriptions do you want from the GM and do you want them to be more or less literary (i.e. should they be evocative, sound like novel prose, employ literary techniques, etc or should they be more conversational and plain spoken). @Aldarc 's post above yours is definitely about which is mo...
  • 01:18 PM - Maxperson quoted Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I don't disagree. But you are misreading what I am saying. I am saying exactly because what you said is true we should pay more attention to substance than packaging, more attention to a person's ideas than the rhetoric they wrap it up in, and more attention to what a GM is actually saying than the way they are saying it. So I wasn't denying that people pay attention to how things are said. I didn't say this wasn't the case. My statement was saying it shouldn't be the case. It is an ought statement. Wouldn't you agree the things you mention in your quote are bad? Doesn't this suggest we should pay more attention to substance than delivery? The example I gave was from I, Claudius. In that scene, which I tweaked to fit to this context, he is speaking to the Senate after the Praetorians declared him emperor. One of the issues the senate is concerned about is his mind and his stammer. So he says what a man says is more important than how long he takes to say it. It wouldn't be charisma if it didn't...
  • 05:51 AM - Umbran quoted Bedrockgames in post Why are we okay with violence in RPGs?
    Makes me wonder if you actually understand the arguments in this thread, or in that other one that shall not be named. . Also others on the thread brought up this topic so figured might as well weigh in on that point. Talk about your questionable choices. One reason why we are okay with violence, is that in the real world, some people have issues letting things go, and that tends to escalate.... Gentlemen, be warned - dragging around drama from closed threads is an astoundingly good way to get yourself a vacation from the site. Both of you drop it, now, please and thank you. I would, in fact, take this exchange as an indication that neither one of you should be responding to each other in this thread. It does not seem that either of you has cooled off well enough to resist the temptation to take pot-shots.

Wednesday, 12th June, 2019

  • 10:09 PM - lowkey13 quoted Bedrockgames in post Why are we okay with violence in RPGs?
    Yes I read what you wrote. So why did you assume this was the reason behind the discomfort? If it wasn't?
  • 10:05 PM - lowkey13 quoted Bedrockgames in post Why are we okay with violence in RPGs?
    I assumed this was the reason behind the discomfort with violence in RPGs Nope. I'm not trying to harsh on anyone's conception of what is, and isn't fun- after all, I was deliriously happy watching John Wick 3, so I'm not getting on any soapboxes when it comes to violence.
  • 09:41 PM - Elfcrusher quoted Bedrockgames in post Why are we okay with violence in RPGs?
    Either way, I don’t think there is much of a connection with role playing violence and real world violence ??? Me either. Was somebody in this thread suggesting there's a connection? Makes me wonder if you actually understand the arguments in this thread, or in that other one that shall not be named. Or if maybe you just fear others making such a connection (e.g., the "violent video games cause violent crime" canard) so you're unwilling to entertain some possibilities.
  • 02:10 PM - Maxperson quoted Bedrockgames in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Just to roughly quote from my favorite series "Isn't what a man has to say more important than how he says it?" No. A lot of people with great ideas have been ignored by people, because the one with the idea didn't say it right. A lot of horrors have happened, because someone with a bad idea that people generally wouldn't listen to, were sold on it by someone saying it the right way. How you say something is very often more important than what you are saying.
  • 04:09 AM - Umbran quoted Bedrockgames in post Players 'distressed' by gang-rape role-playing game
    The player interviewed who I was reacting to never mentioned being a survivor of sexual violence in the interview.It is possible this person is a sexual violence survivor. But I don't think we can leap to that conclusion (unless I missed something in the interview). Dude. If it was a woman, you don't have to leap, because of the statistics involved. One in five women are raped at some point in their lives. 43% of heterosexual women report experiencing some sexual violence other than rape.* This stuff is so darned common, they don't even have to experience it to have a valid strong reaction, because they live in fear of it throughout their lives. And you claim to be compassionate? How much effort do you want to put into trying to justify discounting the testimony? But then again, I suppose it isn't a whole lot of effort. All you have to do is type. So, so easy for you. *Statistics from the National Sexual Violence Resource Center, 2015.
  • 03:52 AM - Umbran quoted Bedrockgames in post Hidden
  • 03:05 AM - billd91 quoted Bedrockgames in post Hidden


Page 1 of 97 123456789101151 ... LastLast

Bedrockgames's Downloads

  Filename Total Downloads Rating Files Uploaded Last Updated

Most Recent Favorite Generators/Tables

View All Favorites