Whirlwind-

[trentonjoe]

Last night I ran a 5th level fighter (as a monster)with the whirlwind attack feat. He kicked some serious buttocks!!


I had never used it before so it got me thinking. How often does it come in to play? In THe situation I ran it was the one fighter versus 5 party members so he just delayed until he was surronded and then whirlwinded. Seemed like the ideal situation for the feat.

I guess my question is : HOw often does this come into play for PCs in your group?

I am worried that it is like combat reflexes, it looks neat and when you get to use it rocks but the appropriate situations are few and far between.

 

[Ywain]

It really depends. Most of the time, at higher levels, a fighter is better off using his iterative attacks to focus on one enemy at a time.

But against:

1) Low HP Opponents, who you can take out in fewer hits (not rounds) than there are enemies (2 hits each on 3 enemies) WWA will end a fight faster than focusing on one at a time.

2) Really high AC opponents: If your 3rd and subesquent iterative attacks are not likely to hit anyway, you might as well Whirlwind. Because all WWA are at your highest BAB, your second WWA is effectively at +5 to hit, your 3rd at +10, your 4th (if you have a 4th iterative attack, even) +15. When faced with two opponents where your first attack hits on a 5, your second on a 10 and third on a 15, it usually isn't a bad Idea to WWA and hit each of them once on a 5 -- instead of hittin one of them once or maybe twice.

3) Really low AC opponents in conjunction with power attack. If you only miss on a 1 with your highest BAB and can pump +5 or more into damage with Power Attack you might want to hit as often as possible. Heck if you have a +20 attack bonus against 2 opponents with an AC of 16, I would forego the 3rd iterative attack and even risk +7 to Power Attack and only hit on a 3 or better. Statistically it might not be perfect, but your dealing with large numbers by this point so you've got a bit of a margin for error.

4) You have allies who are focusing on individual enemies. Your WWA will wear down all of the enemies (especially in situations #2 and #3 above) more than would be possible without WWA. Your comrades will probably get the killing blows, but you'll be shortening the fight by a couple rounds if you use this tactic.

5) There is some magic involved that gives you a bonus to damage for only one or two rounds. You want to get the most out of it so you use WWA (at your highest BAB) to ensure that you hit as many opponents as possible.

 

[Psifon]

I have a 4th level fighter who I am working up to WWA and Great Cleave by 6th level (that is ALL he will do).

I figure that Ywain is basically correct, with WWA alone. On the other hand, if you combine it with great cleave, I think you will see a big improvement in your damage potential. The way I look at it is, say you whittle down 3-4 beefy opponents. At some point it is likely that you score a critical hit. That opponent will drop one round sooner due to the extra damage he took. Now you get a cleave attack in, and another foe is dropping one round sooner. This can create an effect where you are finally getting two attacks against each foe in one round, as you cleave, whrilwind, drop / cleave, whirlwind, drop, foe after foe.

so what I am seeing is that great cleave (and to a lesser extent, cleave) allows you to finish off most or all of your enemies one round sooner. This counters one of the great weaknesses of WWA: You are subject to a lot of attacks from your many foes as you damage all of them, but take a long time to drop any of them. By shortening this time you are aleviating this weekness.

So that's how it looks on paper. I hope that in 2-3 months (we trade off DM'ing) I will be able to tell you how it works in actual play.

By the way. Did you know that WWA is an attack action, and according to the PHB on page 124 you can take a 5' step before, after or between your attacks in an attack action. Therefore, you can WWA, take a 5' step and CONTINUE your WWA! Cool huh?

 

[kreynolds]

By the way. Did you know that WWA is an attack action, and according to the PHB on page 124 you can take a 5' step before, after or between your attacks in an attack action. Therefore, you can WWA, take a 5' step and CONTINUE your WWA! Cool huh?

Oh boy. Here we go again. This was debated not too long ago. Can't remember the outcome, though I believe it was determined that you could not move during the WWA.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Oh boy. Here we go again. This was debated not too long ago. Can't remember the outcome, though I believe it was determined that you could not move during the WWA.

I believe the final tally was that 45% thought you couldn't move at all, 40% thought you could move but not add new targets, and 15% said "huh?".

 

[kreynolds]

I believe the final tally was that 45% thought you couldn't move at all, 40% thought you could move but not add new targets, and 15% said "huh?".

Damn near split down the middle. I didn't realize that the discussion was never really resolved.

 

[Psifon]

Well then, lets resolve it:

Originally posted in SRD
[qb]
Whirlwind Attack [General]
Prerequisites: Int 13+, Expertise, Dex 13+, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4 or higher, Spring Attack.
Benefit: When the character performs the full attack action, he or she can give up all regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at the full base attack bonus against each opponent
within 5 feet.
[/qb]

So as you can see, Whriwind Attack is a full attack action...

Originally posted in SRD
[qb]
Full attack [Full][AoO: No]
Description: If a character gets more than one attack per action, the character must use the full attack action to use those additional attacks. A character does not need to specify the targets of a the attacks ahead of time. A character can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The character may take a 5 ft. step before, after, or between the attacks.

If a character gets multiple attacks based on a character's base attack bonus, the character must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest.

Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack Action: After a character's first attack, if the character has not yet taken a 5-foot step, a character can decide to move instead of making a character's remaining attacks.

The character uses each attack to attack an opponent in a space that character threatens. The attack roll is:

d20 + Attack modifiers vs. AC of target

Attack modifiers consist of the character's base attack bonus, size adjustment, strength adjustment, and any other bonuses that apply to the attack roll.

A natural 1 on the d20 is always a miss, and a natural 20 on the d20 is always a hit.

If the modified attack roll is equal to or greater than the AC of the target, the attack is successful. The attack may also be a Threat. See Critical Hits and Dealing Damage, below, for more details.

If the character is attacking an armed opponent while unarmed, the character provokes an immediate attack of opportunity from the target which is resolved before the character's attack. Note that under certain circumstances, a character attacking without a weapon is still considered "armed".

A character can choose to fight defensively when taking the full attack action. If a character does so, the character takes a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. [/qb]

....and like any full attack action you can take a 5' step before, after or between attacks.

It's all right there in black and white.

 

[Corwin]

It's all right there in black and white.

Agreed. It is. But that doesn't explain how you came to the conclusion you have. Looky here...

Benefit: When the character performs the full attack action, he or she can give up all regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at the full base attack bonus against each opponent
within 5 feet.

Seems pretty clear to me that you cannot take a 5-foot step in the middle of a WWA. The new targets you are stepping over to hit were not within reach when you declared you were giving up your itterative attacks. Since they were not at the required 5 feet away at the time, you cannot WWA them.

Put it this way, based on the feat's description...

1) You declare you are going to WWA.
2) Give up all your regular attacks.
3) Determine who you are attacking within 5 feet of you.
4) Attack them all.
5) WWA ends.

'Nuff said, IMO.

Having taken care of that, there is a bit more to the WWA controversy which you may find interesting (unless you already knew it)...

Officially, when using WWA, you are still allowed to make any-and-all attacks you may have with your off-hand. That is because they are not your "regular attacks" as specified in the WWA feat description.

 

[Ywain]

Last night I ran a 5th level fighter (as a monster)with the whirlwind attack feat. He kicked some serious buttocks!!

Wait a minute! How does a fighter get WWA at 5th level.

Level 1 - Dodge, Mobility, Expertise
Level 2 - Spring... oh, wait, BAB +4 requirement... something else.
Level 3 - Something Else
Level 4 - Spring Attack
Level 5 - no feat
Level 6 - Whirlwind Attack

You aren't doing something cheesy like banking feats, are you?

 

[Psifon]

Seems pretty clear to me that you cannot take a 5-foot step in the middle of a WWA. The new targets you are stepping over to hit were not within reach when you declared you were giving up your itterative attacks. Since they were not at the required 5 feet away at the time, you cannot WWA them.

Put it this way, based on the feat's description...

1) You declare you are going to WWA.
2) Give up all your regular attacks.
3) Determine who you are attacking within 5 feet of you.
4) Attack them all.
5) WWA ends.

'Nuff said, IMO.

You are ignoring one thing. the feat states: "When the character performs the full attack action,"

the definition of a full attack action states: "The character may take a 5 ft. step before, after, or between the attacks."

Giving up your attacks is not an action (as you seem to be implying by listing it above), and neither is determining who you are attacking. The WWA as a whole is a full attack action, and you apply the same rules to it as you would any other full attack action. This is clear because the rules do not make a define it as a full attack action, and do not make a specific exception where WWA is concerned. The line about giving up your regular attacks just means that you don't ALSO get to do your iterative attacks when you whirlwind.

I have come to the conclusion that you can take a 5' step in the middle of a WWA, becasue this is what the rules SAY. Having taken care of THAT, yes I did know about using an off hand weapon, thanks for asking.