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    The worst of all worlds is when the ruleset...

    The worst of all worlds is when the ruleset pretends it offers challenge and therefore excitement, when in reality it gives the players a thousand and one tools to completely control the frequency of...
  2. Thread locked until release.

    Thread locked until release.
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    True, but also a huge nitpick and wildly...

    True, but also a huge nitpick and wildly irrelevant to the discussion.
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    Okay, so I'm not seeing any replies from people...

    Okay, so I'm not seeing any replies from people that actually share the sentiment asked about; just speculation on what they might say. Carry on...
  5. PF2 Can't you just build a different wizard, one that...

    Can't you just build a different wizard, one that remains a squishie, if telling "squishie stories" is that important to you?
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    A very wise choice :) after all, a player has one...

    A very wise choice :) after all, a player has one (1) character to worry about, while the DM has a dozen.

    Making PC chargen more crunchy than NPC chargen makes a lot of sense.
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    Theoretically, yes indeed. However, we've already...

    Theoretically, yes indeed. However, we've already got 5E where 1 was sacrificed (but not for the benefit of 3).

    So it feels like more of a market to offer 1 & 2 :)
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    People want incompatible things: 1) deep crunchy...

    People want incompatible things:
    1) deep crunchy charbuild options on the player side
    2) simple fast monster creation on the DM side
    3) PCs and NPCs being governed by the same rules

    Sorry, no...
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    PF2 and energy damage

    Traditionally D&D games make choosing fire over other magical energies (electricity, cold, sonic, etc) a given. Fire spells are generally best, plain and simple. About the only real use for something...
  10. That's actually more common than you'd think,...

    That's actually more common than you'd think, that people misuse the adventure format even though all they want is to read you a story, having no interest or intention to let the players exhibit free...
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    PF2 and the adventure day

    To my personal surprise, the thing one of my players said he disliked most about 5E was the need to have X encounters a day.

    That is, have less and the long-rest classes gain the upper hand; have...
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    No, you were onto the right answer: people get...

    No, you were onto the right answer: people get emotional when it comes to D&D even though once in a while the game itself is blameless; they're only projecting their own insecurities and prejudice.
    ...
  13. PF2 "Only fighter" OAs might make sense from a gamist...

    "Only fighter" OAs might make sense from a gamist perspective, but how does it stop the monsters from getting to the wizard?

    The whole point of OAs is deterrence. As a fighter, you don't actually...
  14. PF2 Not sure what you mean by "fluid", but if you...

    Not sure what you mean by "fluid", but if you mean the opposite of "static", that is, that PF2 characters are able to move about the battlefield more, then I'm all for it.

    One big drawback of 3.x...
  15. PF2 Thank you for replying. No game is perfect,...

    Thank you for replying.

    No game is perfect, but there's a darn big difference between 3E and 5E, say.


    I think this is chiefly because most players play 5E and wasn't around (or doesn't care...
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    PF2 Never played PF1 (but played 3.x a lot), will...

    Never played PF1 (but played 3.x a lot), will give 2 a go. Reason: 5E doesn't offer enough charbuild crunch for my players.
  17. PF2 In 5E, the main reason monsters attack...

    In 5E, the main reason monsters attack frontliners and not backbenchers isn't attacks of opportunities.

    It is the simple fact the Wizards stay more than 30 ft back. If the monster must choose...
  18. PF2 Honestly, it appears you're the only one, based...

    Honestly, it appears you're the only one, based on how you, and you alone, respond to my every post on the subject, always trying to make it about me, rather than the topic discussed.

    (And, no,...
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    Similarities 4E PF2?

    Edit: This is not a troll thread. For the purposes of this thread, assume I am neutral towards 4th edition and that any similarities are neither bad not good. Thank you.

    I've heard the sentiment...
  20. PF2 If the goal is to retain the 4E-era prominence...

    If the goal is to retain the 4E-era prominence Pathfinder 1 enjoyed, the only way for Pathfinder 2 not to be a heartbreaker is to adhere just as close to 5E as PF1 adhered to 3E.

    In other words,...
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    If we go by in-game performance, the LotR Ranger...

    If we go by in-game performance, the LotR Ranger is Boromir! [emoji846]
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    Funny, I don't remember Legolas melee combat...

    Funny, I don't remember Legolas melee combat pet...?

    *Gives Gimli a glance*

    Oh wait...
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    That's WotC's job :)

    That's WotC's job :)
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    How so? I mean, having the simple "pre-built"...

    How so?

    I mean, having the simple "pre-built" sidekicks at level 1-6 is great and all, but how would the product be less desirable by also having build guidance for higher levels....?

    (Maybe I...
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    From a white-room numbers point of view, this...

    From a white-room numbers point of view, this makes the Beastmaster appear quite overpowered. But
    1) it's two creatures, neither of which can survive if half a creature. Of course the pair appears...
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    As for the Beast, offer (at least) three...

    As for the Beast, offer (at least) three archetypal critters:

    Ursine (bears, boars, etc): can wear heavy armor barding, master's hit points + 2/level.

    Lupine (wolves, dogs, etc): can wear...
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    As for a rangery counterpart to Paladin smiting;...

    As for a rangery counterpart to Paladin smiting; two ideas:

    Infuse Trap. Make a snare or place a bear trap. Spend a slot to make the trap magical. Since trap damage is way less direct or assured...
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    Much to my surprise, I wholeheartedly agree to...

    Much to my surprise, I wholeheartedly agree to two Flamestrike posts in a row [emoji846] (see XP given)

    Yes, the core issue is probably that MMearls & Co vastly overvalue the explore pillar of the...
  29. PF2 Yep. Thanks. (Of course, if you multiply the...

    Yep. Thanks.

    (Of course, if you multiply the 5E races by its classes by its Backgrounds, you'll get a number that blows 1E and 2E out the water [emoji854])
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    The UA article isn't simply "more detailed/in...

    The UA article isn't simply "more detailed/in depth". It's two different systems, two different approaches, with two different results.

    I definitely like the Essentials approach much better, since...
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    The animal companion needs to be able to enter...

    The animal companion needs to be able to enter melee combat and survive, maybe not as primary tank, but certainly the attention of a couple of adds. And the random fireball. And still not be dying,...
  32. PF2 I an slightly amused at this sentiment. Recent...

    I an slightly amused at this sentiment. Recent "core" rulebooks offer well over ten classes, like twelve or fourteen.

    Historically, D&D has had four, maybe seven, core classes.

    I still feel...
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    Now you're getting dangerously close to actively...

    Now you're getting dangerously close to actively seeking out an argument with me. I've repeatedly said that while I might have preferences (much like everyone else) I have no real stake in what...
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    Well, for what it's worth, had I played a 5E...

    Well, for what it's worth, had I played a 5E Ranger, I wouldn't have bothered with casting many spells...
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    Sure. I won't deny Pathfinder is likely to...

    Sure. I won't deny Pathfinder is likely to overengineer things much like 5E underengineered them.

    I was merely pointing out "competence" does not need to be a monolithic number. Having distinct...
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    Sorry but you don't get to decide my issues are...

    Sorry but you don't get to decide my issues are unimportant while yours are.

    And I don't know what threads you're reading, but you have certainly missed a crap-ton of them, all saying the...
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    It's spellcasting is incredibly weak sauce....

    It's spellcasting is incredibly weak sauce. Compare paladin smiting. The ranger needs way more than known spells - had they been able to convert spell slots to bonus damage on top of their regular...
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    Nature vs nurture. Trained vs natural

    Nature vs nurture. Trained vs natural
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    If you're saying you have a clear ID for what YOU...

    If you're saying you have a clear ID for what YOU want the Ranger to be, sure. Otherwise, this and other threads clearly reveal nobody can agree to what the Ranger is and should do; and that the...
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    Oh boy are you in the wrong thread if that's...

    Oh boy are you in the wrong thread if that's supposed to mean you think the ranger is fine, Tony [emoji3]
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    Generally we're in agreement. Just two nitpicks...

    Generally we're in agreement. Just two nitpicks [emoji854]

    1) I never argued they should invent something new and un-inconic. Literally every feature I want them to choose from will be something...
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    I was responding to "the Fighter needs to be the...

    I was responding to "the Fighter needs to be the one good at fighting" argument. Maybe I replied to the wrong post.

    As for your argument, just being good at fighting in a game where everyone is...
  43. PF2 Robust maybe, but bigger design space? No,...

    Robust maybe, but bigger design space? No, there's no reason unification changes the design space. If anything, having to adhere to one set of parameters instead of three(?) means fewer...
  44. PF2 I assume you're still playing OD&D then? In...

    I assume you're still playing OD&D then?

    In other words, no it isn't [emoji846]
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    Returning to the thread topic, all WotC needs to...

    Returning to the thread topic, all WotC needs to do is pick one or two Ranger concepts, and develop those into actual good and desirable abilities. The rest should be dropped; or at least not stand...
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    That ship sailed a long time ago. Fighter will be...

    That ship sailed a long time ago. Fighter will be in every edition always. As the most undiluted Hero class with the fewest distractions, it will always be popular.
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    In a game where combat is just one out of many...

    In a game where combat is just one out of many secondary activities, sure, I can see that, no problem.

    The only problem is when someone is talking about D&D where it is utterly obvious the realism...
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    Tank definitely includes active abilities to...

    Tank definitely includes active abilities to ensure all that toughness actually sees use.

    Simplest example: aggro management in WoW. Those monsters didn't keep hammering the Warrior because they...
  49. PF2 The point is that "telling the same stories" is...

    The point is that "telling the same stories" is as useless a metric as "you could say that about Edition X".

    You can pretty much take any Golarion scenario, or an old AD&D scenario, and then run...
  50. PF2 Well, you can say that of any pairing of dndish...

    Well, you can say that of any pairing of dndish games: you can play the same sort of stories and characters in AD&D and 5E, for instance. At least if you squint hard enough; no transition is...
  51. PF2 When it comes to the "feat overload" issue, it is...

    When it comes to the "feat overload" issue, it is possible that either
    A) the playtest was organized that way specifically for playtest purposes; that is, newcomer friendliness wasn't a priority...
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    Are you aware you're linking to Google AMP?...

    Are you aware you're linking to Google AMP? Accelerated pages that often break certain functionality?

    You should be able to access the original article on the actual web site. Once you have that...
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    In a strict sense, yes of course, since no video...

    In a strict sense, yes of course, since no video game is ever a 100% faithful simulation of a ttrpg ruleset.

    But I don't think the context here is about PHB vs expansion content. It is about...
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    Again, that shows just how clever the WoW Hunter...

    Again, that shows just how clever the WoW Hunter class was
  55. Replies
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    Yes, the proposed Ranger abilities come across as...

    Yes, the proposed Ranger abilities come across as written by someone with zero clue.

    I mean, when you can give an ability a casual glance and *immediately* say "that will ruin the game" something...
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    No. The only real cost of Guidance is its cost...

    No.

    The only real cost of Guidance is its cost in the action economy. During combat this cost (=making a Cleric, an otherwise very capable character do nothing else) is actually quite significant...
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    The problem with that is that it enables me to...

    The problem with that is that it enables me to argue there's little difference between a +2 proficiency bonus and a +6 one.

    Each +1 bonus matters. When you have players that minmax well, guidance...
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    I am honestly baffled someone can think 4E is...

    I am honestly baffled someone can think 4E is anywhere near the experience of playing AD&D/d20/5E... but since that seems to be the case, I guess there's nothing else for me to do but take my hat off...
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    Yes. "You can never be surprised" is a piss-poor...

    Yes. "You can never be surprised" is a piss-poor ability that never should have entered the game, since it short-circuits stories.

    I wonder how long it will take before MMearls admits this. At...
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    Being able to get +2.5 on anything anytime has a...

    Being able to get +2.5 on anything anytime has a huge impact on play.

    MUCH more than killing some random monster.

    It would be much better to make it a 1st level spell, so it couldn't be...
  61. Thread: BECMI for 5e?

    by CapnZapp
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    Actually, given the overall meh-factor on most...

    Actually, given the overall meh-factor on most (not all, but most) high-level abilities that aren't spells, and how the game feels like content is thinner at the upper half, I think they could just...
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    Too many suggested ideas forget that ruining the...

    Too many suggested ideas forget that ruining the surprise isn't a good thing.

    Don't give the Ranger abilities to auto-detect terrain, hazards or creatures. At the very most, make it (high level)...
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    The peak can still have been reached. Unless...

    The peak can still have been reached.

    Unless you want to argue that as long as a single new gamer joins up, it hasn't. OTOH that's absurd.

    Now then; let me flag that's all I have to say on that...
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    It was probably Tony Vargas. On the other...

    It was probably Tony Vargas.

    On the other hand, he sees 4th edition in everything everywhere, so I've learned to simply ignore that.

    Let me reassure you I'm playing 5E because it resembles d20...
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    You *really* need to consider what a discussion...

    You *really* need to consider what a discussion forum is for.

    Hint: it's not to only discuss scientifically proven facts.

    If you're frustrated why I keep ignoring these replies, now you know...
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    The Ranger will fail until it's actually good....

    The Ranger will fail until it's actually good. Then it won't matter if it has spells, companions or whatnot.
  67. ...and we're up to six hundred posts on a decades...

    ...and we're up to six hundred posts on a decades old row with absolutely nothing to show for it!!

    See you in another couple of hundred posts! *good job* *sarcasm*
  68. Replies
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    I look forward to a complete breakdown, where you...

    I look forward to a complete breakdown, where you can see exactly how the various versions differ with no lookup needed. Maybe on a rules wiki somewhere [emoji846]
  69. The committee part referred to the removal of the...

    The committee part referred to the removal of the restriction from the playtest.

    (That is, you got it backwards. The idea was that if 5E had been designed by the same committee, Attunement would...
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    Without having any idea of what a pugmire is, you...

    Without having any idea of what a pugmire is, you have a point: yes of course there will be gamers content with 5E.

    But these "casuals" will never play a Pathfinder game. (That's not a slight. I...
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    On paper, a relevant point. In practice,...

    On paper, a relevant point.

    In practice, seldom relevant.
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    That is literally the reason for every new...

    That is literally the reason for every new edition of an existing game ever.

    The skill is always how to sell the new edition while drawing the attention well away from this fact.
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    The obvious place to start recruiting is among...

    The obvious place to start recruiting is among existing 5E gamers.

    Without knowing for sure, I feel the vast majority of prospective gamers of this generation has already been recruited.

    That...
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    Because you are dissatisfied with the little...

    Because you are dissatisfied with the little crunch there is in 5E...?

    I believe there is a market opening for a dndian game with more crunch.

    I do not believe there is a market for the various...
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    I believe they should have went for an Advanced...

    I believe they should have went for an Advanced 5th Edition for their game.

    That is, a game that uses 5E's advances in fixing d20 as a base, then opening up a select number of subsystems to add...
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    Okay, so it should now be possible to write up...

    Okay, so it should now be possible to write up these as "classes" so we can compare and contrast exactly how much simpler this is than the UA Sidekicks.

    And the PHB classes.. And the good old d20...
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    By this time is should be readily apparent to all...

    By this time is should be readily apparent to all of us WotC can't write "ranger" abilities. They don't have a clue is the only conclusion when these abilities allow you to trivialize or entirely...
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    I don't disagree. However, I note that list is...

    I don't disagree.

    However, I note that list is chalk full of examples of things that simply don't cut it as unique class abilities: some are skill proficiencies, some are what 5E calls background...
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    Do we have complete details on Essentials...

    Do we have complete details on Essentials sidekicks yet?
  80. Had 5E asked a community about Attunement I'm...

    Had 5E asked a community about Attunement I'm sure it too had been rejected.

    Sometimes design-by-committee isn't all that.
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    Interesting that I've noted at least one...

    Interesting that I've noted at least one responder who has made smug remarks insinuating inconsistency while entirely missing the point here: a restriction on ranged fire that has close to zero...
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    You could almost call it... the Hunter BROOM ...

    You could almost call it... the Hunter

    BROOM

    *lifts sunglasses*
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    I like thread necromancy, if performed with skill...

    I like thread necromancy, if performed with skill and elegance.
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    This means a covering creature, say your Fighter...

    This means a covering creature, say your Fighter ally, is safe provided his AC is equal to or higher than the targeted monster's AC.

    I've simplified this and instead say "enemies can only hide...
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    First and foremost, the Ranger needs to be good...

    First and foremost, the Ranger needs to be good at what he does, whatever that is.

    Okay, so you say spells are central to the concept? Well, make it a full caster, like the Bard, then!

    It is...
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    They finally fixed the Bard once they managed to...

    They finally fixed the Bard once they managed to shed the notions a) if you want to be good at many things you must suck at them all, and b) "bardiness" must be implemented thru wonky musical special...
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    Yeah, Aragorn is obviously a Fighter who just...

    Yeah, Aragorn is obviously a Fighter who just happened to take the Survival and Herbalism proficiencies.

    Don't get me wrong, I definitely think there's design space for a "Ranger", but basing it...
  88. Replies
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    Yeah no, casting a few weak-ass spells have never...

    Yeah no, casting a few weak-ass spells have never felt core to me.

    I would gladly give them up, especially since they're likely rated far higher than their actual worth. Put that design space into...
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    Not sure what you mean or how you think the...

    Not sure what you mean or how you think the "class structure" comes into play.

    By the sound of it, what you're suggesting is too complex for 5E, but again, not sure what you mean.

    Anyway,...
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    I think World of Warcraft got it right. Cool...

    I think World of Warcraft got it right.

    Cool black powder schtick, ranged specialist, an animal companion that makes you proud.

    The at-a-distance fighter with a melee servant is a distinct...
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    I believe them folks over at Giant in the Foot...

    I believe them folks over at Giant in the Foot forums persecute practitioners of the foul arts.

    Where's the fun in that? [emoji6]
  92. I am saying hit points make cover less relevant...

    I am saying hit points make cover less relevant and enables you take shortcuts to your target in ways you simply wouldn't without them. Hp is a kind of "portable cover" in how they both act to delay...
  93. Thank you for finally coming aboard. Yes, at...

    Thank you for finally coming aboard.

    Yes, at least I have never had the intention to call out your game as badwrongfun. Only explain to people why you might want to reconsider using hit points in...
  94. Please. D&D is not exactly low on the spectrum...

    Please. D&D is not exactly low on the spectrum here. D&D is *definitely* a game constructed to allow the Barbarian to break cover and rush into melee.

    Exactly the kind of behavior many people...
  95. But then your fighters don't need cover, which...

    But then your fighters don't need cover, which means you don't get the kind of movement expected from a Western.

    Not saying it's wrong to have your gunslinger shrug off arrows as if he was Conan,...
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    I thought to extract the bits relevant to 5E, but...

    I thought to extract the bits relevant to 5E, but really, the only new tibit I could find, was that Larian is tweaking the experience of playing the Fighter at low levels:

    "The fighter has been a...
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    Is the exact rules for Essential sidekicks...

    Is the exact rules for Essential sidekicks detailed in a thread somewhere..?
  98. Low AC... high damage... Few hit points. It's...

    Low AC... high damage... Few hit points.

    It's all aspects of the same thing.

    It all represents your growing realization it is the hit point based damage model that is the crux of the issue.
    ...
  99. Don't encourage him. The real reasons why you'd...

    Don't encourage him. The real reasons why you'd want to switch to a non-hp based games are much more sophisticated than the simple issue of realism/lethality.
  100. How does it help to bring up bows and crossbows?

    How does it help to bring up bows and crossbows?
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