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  1. You do realize that the answer to this question...

    You do realize that the answer to this question has been posted at least 10 times in the last 10 pages of this thread? There comes a point where continuing the conversation along the same lines is...
  2. True enough. At least this conversation isn't...

    True enough. At least this conversation isn't one of the few where I start wondering if the folks commenting actually play the game.
  3. Hussar's "force" means that the GM will force a...

    Hussar's "force" means that the GM will force a player to do something to maintain his patron relationship and the powers that result from it. Our point of view is that a patron can not like...
  4. I think that what I've learned over my last year...

    I think that what I've learned over my last year back at this site is that there are some folks (and I'm not pointing at anyone in particular) that have the ability to tee off of one post, develop a...
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    I was a history major before I found my calling...

    I was a history major before I found my calling so the backstory stuff isn't a problem

    However, like others have said - sometimes it feels like the adventure is secondary to the backstory in the...
  6. Love it. On my end I had a half-orc bard at...

    Love it.

    On my end I had a half-orc bard at one point in time that used a variation on mirror image to do his best motown inspired five man vocal act.

    There's a ton you can do with the game...
  7. Opinion: Group has five players. DC 15 can...

    Opinion:

    Group has five players. DC 15 can be rough at low levels.

    10 successes before 5 failures. With each failure one of the PCs is captured OR preferably, you run an actual combat...
  8. and for the record, I'd have loved this too. ...

    and for the record, I'd have loved this too.

    But on point to the discussion - if you had gone on to have a dragon patron - it would have been very powerful indeed and I'd be thinking long and...
  9. RIP Greg - one with the totem, one with the earth...

    RIP Greg - one with the totem, one with the earth and sky.

    KB
  10. Using your example only as an answer to why ...

    Using your example only as an answer to why

    Because you may want to play a game where a prophecy flavors the game you play; but other players may not, or the DM may not have enough bandwidth to...
  11. That is language that manages the expectation...

    That is language that manages the expectation that the player is not solely responsible for how the pact works. Whether it's interpreted your way or mine is largely dependent on the table and the...
  12. The warlock has a patron as a class feature that...

    The warlock has a patron as a class feature that the character is beholden to. If the player doesn’t want the relationship, don’t play a warlock. Them’s the rules. Paladins may or may not be the...
  13. Well I suppose it comes down to wherever you are...

    Well I suppose it comes down to wherever you are on the paradigm of story as an extension of rules and rules as the boundaries of story.

    I'd say that in my experience what has happened is that a...
  14. Read the entire thread?

    Read the entire thread?
  15. 1. Don't assume that my opinion about human...

    1. Don't assume that my opinion about human nature is inaccurate simply because you have a relationship with your players that is better than the lowest common denominator.

    2. Likewise, my...
  16. Thanks and I hear you. I was offering in case...

    Thanks and I hear you. I was offering in case you wanted a potential solution to the problem. Only reason I did so was because I like solving problems and hacking systems.

    Be well
    KB
  17. Keeping in mind general flavor of the classes,...

    Keeping in mind general flavor of the classes, here's some guidelines that you may find interesting or just not like at all.
    - Start Clerics as Healers - kill their spell casting but allow them to...
  18. If every interaction with the patron is managed...

    If every interaction with the patron is managed by the player then it becomes very likely that every interaction will be a positive one. Positive interactions with patrons tend to result in boons...
  19. For me the issue is not letting players establish...

    For me the issue is not letting players establish fiction. In fact, I allow players to roleplay NPCs when I need to establish campaign history that isn't already in stone or when their characters...
  20. Hi Manbear - I appreciate that you're asking...

    Hi Manbear -

    I appreciate that you're asking a question, but I wasn't aware that my answers to Pem had anything to do with the situation you described so I opted to bow out.

    Since you asked...
  21. I think my answer would be obvious but here goes....

    I think my answer would be obvious but here goes.

    You've engineered a situation that is not at all like the one I'm replying about (supernatural patron, potentially obvious bias without...
  22. Break and Suffer are qualitative. Neither are...

    Break and Suffer are qualitative. Neither are likely but both are possible regardless of who controls the patron.

    If you have a player that controls the patron and doesn't build in suitable...
  23. Hi Pem - Well you're right that it's...

    Hi Pem -

    Well you're right that it's prescriptive but it's also based on the concept of what a patron is when you take it away from the game and just use the term in real life. - A patron is...
  24. I'm with you on this because I've run a...

    I'm with you on this because I've run a "campaign" that lasted a long time using the HERO system.

    Here's the rub there because it's the granddaddy of all point buy systems.

    1. You buy...
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    Sure. Depends on your group too. My strong...

    Sure. Depends on your group too.

    My strong preference is to have the majority if not all of my table be strong with the kibitz because it's boring as heck otherwise. That preference informs my...
  26. Ok so... This is what I think, I think. A...

    Ok so... This is what I think, I think.

    A player may choose a background, they may have a concept that's agreed to by all at the table and they start the game that way. Whether or not those...
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    Agreed here, and I think every table does it a...

    Agreed here, and I think every table does it a bit different. My preference is to not let the social skill system overtake actual role-playing so I don't set DCs for a diplomacy or social check...
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    Hi - Fear isn't mechanical, it's social. ...

    Hi -

    Fear isn't mechanical, it's social. Saying you want people to fear high level encounters because the dice enforce it is sort of underwhelming and setting the DM up to be the bad person at...
  29. Just means that were I your DM, I'd need to...

    Just means that were I your DM, I'd need to serialize things such that we ran like an episode of Blacklist or some other show over the course of two sessions. that way you'd get a fix every month...
  30. Low HP orc would not survive to adulthood -...

    Low HP orc would not survive to adulthood - counter points.

    1. Subdual damage is not killing damage.
    2. Damage done in cuts and sprains outside of combat is not damage done in combat and HP are...
  31. Eh. I'll add my own experience to the campaign...

    Eh. I'll add my own experience to the campaign mix for the sake of elaborating more on the overarching theme that there's no one right way but everyone kind of does the same things from their own...
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    Probably pretty obvious from my post that I'm...

    Probably pretty obvious from my post that I'm rowing the same boat that you are.

    KB
  33. Not necessarily. It depends on what the "boss"...

    Not necessarily. It depends on what the "boss" in that fight is and how setting a minion ogre would support the story, or ruin it.

    I mean, I can come up with a equally ridiculous example to make...
  34. Perhaps but lets get simpler because you're...

    Perhaps but lets get simpler because you're building a construct around the problem that doesn't need to exist.

    The ability to avoid damage is not relative to, nor does it have to be tied to the...
  35. I think my way of approaching wandering treasure...

    I think my way of approaching wandering treasure is to just abstract it out to the larger picture of "how do I want to reward and penalize my players and what example do I want to reinforce."

    If...
  36. In my opinion it just requires some elastic...

    In my opinion it just requires some elastic thinking (and only mentioning this as an aside as no one wants another HP thread).

    Your 1HP minion is not as skilled as the 20 HP goblin. HP are a part...
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    I agree with this; but here's the rub that...

    I agree with this; but here's the rub that affects all rubs thereafter.

    Rolemaster and HERO are games frameworks. The first steps of using either of these games successfully are:

    1. The GM...
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    .. this is at least part of my time abstraction...

    .. this is at least part of my time abstraction problem for those who were following my admission of inaccuracy.

    Much of my time has been spent mentoring and teaching older and younger...
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    I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again...

    I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again at some point. I'm obviously living in some sort of reality distortion field based on my own way of speaking and an incorrect view of time.

    Thanks,...
  40. Perhaps so. But two things immediately come to...

    Perhaps so. But two things immediately come to mind

    1. In order to have rules about meta gaming you have to address that it exists.
    2. If you take steps to counter it, you’re doing it.
    ...
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    Not going to argue it. Saying “one” generally...

    Not going to argue it. Saying “one” generally takes someone a second of time. “Chocolate” is more complicated, but folks say and do things differently and that’s the beauty of life.
  42. Hi Max Respect your opinions. All I’d add is...

    Hi Max

    Respect your opinions. All I’d add is that Lane agreed he was moving goalposts in a later post and my explanation for why I don’t do exactly the same thing (because who doesn’t like...
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    If you wanted to and play the sort of game that...

    If you wanted to and play the sort of game that goes to that extreme, sure.
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    You’re right that it doesn’t matter at all, but...

    You’re right that it doesn’t matter at all, but I’ll challenge your cognitive definition of a second of real time against what actually is a second of real time. I find that folks have that...
  45. Hi Lanefan - I appreciate the example and get...

    Hi Lanefan -

    I appreciate the example and get where you're coming from. If I can offer my opinion, I think that the approach sounds great in theory and when it comes time to practice it, it's...
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    Not to be the king of picky nits, but I'm going...

    Not to be the king of picky nits, but I'm going to be.

    Time how long it takes you to say one syllable. Unless you're really rushing it's a second. They've got a caster back right is at minimum 3...
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    I think that whenever someone posts bluntly they...

    I think that whenever someone posts bluntly they run the risk of leaving what they're saying open to interpretation. Mike's a human first, game designer later and I don't hold the WoTC team to any...
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    It doesn't attract jerks. It allows jerks to...

    It doesn't attract jerks.

    It allows jerks to be jerks more frequently if they're inclined to be that way to begin with. Creating more rules to offset the behavior doesn't correct it - it just...
  49. I feel your pain as I've been through both of...

    I feel your pain as I've been through both of these things as I'm sure other players have.

    - On the carnal knowledge impacting character knowledge/ability - I've not played in a group where we...
  50. Meh, I just think Lanefan is moving the goal...

    Meh, I just think Lanefan is moving the goal posts.

    DC12 swim.
    I roll 1-11 - I fail and drown without someone to assist.
    I roll 12-20 - I succeed and I'm wet.

    DC12 perception check.
    I roll...
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    Standard rule at my table is: The DM needs to...

    Standard rule at my table is:

    The DM needs to be able to make decisions on the fly to keep the game moving. If a player wishes to contest a ruling such that it is done correctly in the future...
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    Depends on if it's Wednesday. There's a spike in...

    Depends on if it's Wednesday. There's a spike in language without logic mid week most weeks.

    KB
  53. Replies
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    So if a contest is tied the condition existing...

    So if a contest is tied the condition existing before the contest remains after it.

    The race is a construct not the outcome.

    Two people are engaged in a foot race. Neither has won the foot...
  54. I've always been one for simple motivations for...

    I've always been one for simple motivations for monsters. One of these days I'm going to let my players play as a small tribe of kobolds and do a reverse dungeon crawl on a small town or city.
  55. They like to cook things instead of eating raw...

    They like to cook things instead of eating raw things. Perhaps it's taken culinary?
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    Magic items bring up a lot of questions for a DM....

    Magic items bring up a lot of questions for a DM. Though I've already sort of replied to this with my own item destruction method, I think more value comes from working through the problem of a...
  57. I’ll wait for the next wotc cease and desist re:...

    I’ll wait for the next wotc cease and desist re: forgotten realms IP now that you’ve advertised here.
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    AFAIK, there's no rule surrounding the...

    AFAIK, there's no rule surrounding the destruction of magic items so I'd focus on any house rule being something that would be internally consistent if for example, there ever ends up being an item...
  59. I hear you. I'm guessing there are differences...

    I hear you. I'm guessing there are differences to the way we do things simply because of my house rules forcing the interpretations down a path.

    For example: I still allow coup de grace in my...
  60. I'm of the opinion that the choice of word was...

    I'm of the opinion that the choice of word was accurate and the way it's described is not. Perception is one of those things that's always been a pain.
  61. Fair, so in using your definition then, should a...

    Fair, so in using your definition then, should a character be sleeping.. what would wake them in the event of an assassination attempt except for passive perception vs. assassin's stealth check?
    ...
  62. Examples in the book itself pretty much lend...

    Examples in the book itself pretty much lend themselves to the definition I paraphrase. If you're on guard duty you're using passive perception. Feel free to actually read the books through and...
  63. It doesn't. Here's the rub, the DM is the only...

    It doesn't. Here's the rub, the DM is the only person that can initiate a passive check by rule. So in application it's optional even if it's not on the official optional list.

    Every game I've...
  64. Yes. That’s spot on. Provided that passive...

    Yes. That’s spot on. Provided that passive perception is in play the specific optional rule regarding perception overrides the more general specific class ability that might be used on it.
  65. Hi Saelorn - I'm down with DM making...

    Hi Saelorn -



    I'm down with DM making the call. I just have the preference that passive perception is always on and I think that's the correct interpretation of the rules per everything...
  66. I hear you. So here's the counter: A...

    I hear you. So here's the counter:

    A character's passive perception is "always on". So when you walk into a space the DM should be saying to himself.. "Is there anything in this scene that my...
  67. The definition of passive is "not necessarily...

    The definition of passive is "not necessarily paying direct attention".
    The definition of active is "looking for something"

    If a player has a high passive perception, he or she is very observant....
  68. That is exactly it. If the DM decides that...

    That is exactly it.

    If the DM decides that Passive Perception is used in a game, it is effectively the floor. A check is not required. If a player asks for a check, he can't go lower than his...
  69. I'm confused by this conversation. Your...

    I'm confused by this conversation.

    Your passive perception is your floor for any perception check. If you have a 15 passive perception, that's the lowest that ANY perception check can go. If you...
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    HARP is actually really good. That said, any...

    HARP is actually really good. That said, any time someone comes to me and asks me to run 1e, I respond with Rolemaster these days.

    KB
  71. Got it. I hear you re: Aragorn as that was...

    Got it.

    I hear you re: Aragorn as that was always my model for half-elf. I just didn't feel the influence of Numenor on the series beyond a flavor point so didn't think on it.
  72. I hear you, but how many people actually have...

    I hear you, but how many people actually have historical events set up such that half-elves and half-orcs are actually numerous enough to be their own races living only with their own kind such that...
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    Pen and Paper.. what kind of PnP were you...

    Pen and Paper.. what kind of PnP were you thinking of hmmmmm?? ;)
  74. Replies
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    There aren't as many rules in a game with one...

    There aren't as many rules in a game with one book as there are in a game with 20. That's pretty much irrefutable.

    The argument about core v. supplements is a herring. There are rules in the...
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    I think if you use google to find a list of core...

    I think if you use google to find a list of core and supplemental rulebooks and find the appropriate wiki articles supported by the text that WoTC used to sell them, you'll see where I got my...
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    .. and with strange eons even gnomes may die?

    .. and with strange eons even gnomes may die?
  77. Replies
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    I agree, but a page count of a book is not...

    I agree, but a page count of a book is not directly correlated to the number of rules in it. If you'd like to do the lift and actually count all of the source books for the editions and figure out...
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    Hi Pem - Answer to what games I play...

    Hi Pem -

    Answer to what games I play actively: Rolemaster, 4e, 5e.

    In my experience all play differently than the others but the outcomes are the same. None of my players question house rules...
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    I think that you and I have conversations where...

    I think that you and I have conversations where we spend a lot of time drilling into minutiae that neither one of us intends to elaborate on based on the context of the posts that are quoted.

    My...
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    Considering we've had game luminaries on this...

    Considering we've had game luminaries on this forum up to and including Gary himself (RIP) I wouldn't make that assumption.

    FWIW - This isn't the site to be "Internet Stupid" on if you want to...
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    True. In reply: If the rule doesn't exist,...

    True.

    In reply: If the rule doesn't exist, many wouldn't know it needed to. There's something to be said for applying the logic you quoted and keeping the game lighter. (obviously lighter is...
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    I think that one of the tests of whether or not a...

    I think that one of the tests of whether or not a rule is written in the books is:

    1. Is this rule in its application, highly contextual and likely to be DM fiat?

    If answer equals yes - Leave...
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    It is true, because every version of D&D, (as...

    It is true, because every version of D&D, (as I've documented with appropriate references in other posts) has made it very clear that the DM is the designer of last resort for his or her table.
    ...
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    Except it's not a seat for people who like the...

    Except it's not a seat for people who like the gaming aspect if you read into the tone of the decision. It's the people who take the game so seriously that they ruin it for everyone else who are...
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    I think after reading some of this a point should...

    I think after reading some of this a point should be made.

    If you don't like 5e because rules don't support your character narrative and you have to rely on the DM allowing things; I hear you.
    ...
  86. It depends on your players, but I consider an...

    It depends on your players, but I consider an exploit any knowledge the use of any knowledge a player has which influences the outcome of an event, which the character would not have. OR...
  87. I respect your preferences. As a long standing...

    I respect your preferences. As a long standing DM that absolutely loves modules and adventure paths as well as the spirit of RAW, I almost feel the same way.

    The issue with this approach is that...
  88. This thread contains a poll. Generally, when characters die I give players a...

    Generally, when characters die I give players a few options.

    1. Once characters level once, I usually make them aware of the benefits of having retainers with the party.
    2. If they die in the...
  89. You and I may be similar. I've felt that siren...

    You and I may be similar. I've felt that siren call too.

    Every time I've tried it's always boiled down to five rules and once I put the guideposts in the sand I lost interest.

    1. Start with...
  90. I think this is great. Good on you and I hope...

    I think this is great. Good on you and I hope you still have all the notes and such.

    To elaborate on my end, I had a group that came together twice a month for 8-10 hours at a go, and we mostly...
  91. Personally, I've never walked away from a game...

    Personally, I've never walked away from a game where it was clear that the DM intended to run a campaign.

    I've definitely had situations where a DM wasn't popular with the players, and the game...
  92. It's pretty simple really. He's confusing...

    It's pretty simple really. He's confusing "divine" with "infernal" or taking a really holistic definition of divine to include infernal because why should the actual English definition of "divine"...
  93. Honestly, when I made my observation about the...

    Honestly, when I made my observation about the 1991 cutoff between transactional and empathetic relationship options, I was specifically referring to when TWoD hit the shelves.
  94. I agree with you to a point. Where that line is...

    I agree with you to a point. Where that line is drawn is dependent on how transactional the DM and player relationship is.

    In a highly transactional relationship, I'd expect that the player...
  95. This game is an amazing concept and it looks to...

    This game is an amazing concept and it looks to have good mechanics as well. I'm stunned I've never heard of it.
  96. That's fair. I guess I take exception to the...

    That's fair. I guess I take exception to the term "real world" because it's dependent on the specific experiences of the person using the term.

    In my real world, until I gave players a primer I'd...
  97. Re: Comprehensive list of everything objected to...

    Re: Comprehensive list of everything objected to ..



    It's the place of the DM to provide a campaign primer so that players know what is explicitly allowed based on the story being told. It is...
  98. Agree. The other player would know that MC is...

    Agree. The other player would know that MC is allowed when he sits down and can make the choice to play or not. If they choose to play, then they have no business being upset because of another...
  99. Smart is something you do, not something you are....

    Smart is something you do, not something you are. This is true in life as well as gaming.

    Exhibiting caution so you can think about something before you do it is a trait of "smart people", same...
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    I think it's also a simpler way to cut the wheat...

    I think it's also a simpler way to cut the wheat from chaff. If you've not played it before and have opinions, well..
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