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  1. Replies
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    Thats really fun. I would say that it needs some...

    Thats really fun. I would say that it needs some amount of benefit that doesnít require ki expenditure, or adds to a current use of Ki, to fit the other subclasses. This is one reason ppl donít like...
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    Just add strength score to movement for fighters...

    Just add strength score to movement for fighters if the problem is fighters being slower than rogues.
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    Good points. Iíll think on it more and review he...

    Good points. Iíll think on it more and review he whole thing from the ground up again tomorrow.
  4. Iíd love a remake of that classic game

    Iíd love a remake of that classic game
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    The DC calculation comment was not in reference...

    The DC calculation comment was not in reference to the PC making a check. I posited that the ability could instead force a Dex save from the new target. That DC would obviously be based on the PCs...
  6. Gross

    Gross
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    Why shouldnít rogues be faster than fighters? ...

    Why shouldnít rogues be faster than fighters?

    Also my solution is to make the base speed ability the same for all characters, but someone with extra running features should be faster. And itís...
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    I think for ease of play, weíd want just the...

    I think for ease of play, weíd want just the reaction redirect?

    But it yeah I think a Dex check could work. The simplest solution IMO is still an attack, but a Dex check with close to the same...
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    My favorite VM use wasnít even an insult. My...

    My favorite VM use wasnít even an insult.

    My wife has a Star Pact (variant homebrew based on 4e Star Pact) Hexblade, who once whispered to an enemy, ďhey, let me tell you a secret...Ē and...
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    I think a few simple weapons should be finesse,...

    I think a few simple weapons should be finesse, like staff, spear, and handaxe.

    For one thing, those are never the best options, so itís not gonna break anything. For another, they arenít heavy...
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    Bards, too!? Why do you hate so much that is...

    Bards, too!?

    Why do you hate so much that is good!?

    but seriously, anyone mocking bards for being bards played too much 3/.5 or something, bc they are a very strong and fun class in this...
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    I think if we look at other rogue abilities, they...

    I think if we look at other rogue abilities, they leverage opposed checks, which still eventually means that only BBEGs are ever going to win the contest. If we donít want that level of reliability,...
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    There is a step in there that I donít understand....

    There is a step in there that I donít understand.

    edit: low blood sugar sometimes makes me suck at extrapolation. I get it now.

    I think Iíd go some other way to balance it, or, make full run a...
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    Have you considered allowing Athletics checks to...

    Have you considered allowing Athletics checks to go faster as part of taking the Dash action, once per turn? Doing so as an action is implied in the description of Strength ability checks, IIRC, but...
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    Fr anyone wondering, that rogue (assuming 30ft...

    Fr anyone wondering, that rogue (assuming 30ft movement) is running at about 10 miles per hour with a triple movement.

    The American collegiate womenís record for a 100m sprint calculates to about...
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    Ah, see, because I know those things but tone is...

    Ah, see, because I know those things but tone is hard in text, I figured you were referencing a videogame to indicate that something about dashing multiple times was ďvideogameyĒ (unreal and/or...
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    Why the straight line and non-difficult terrain? ...

    Why the straight line and non-difficult terrain?

    Hurdling and normal race race tracks donít exist in your world, or ya got people running 2-3 times faster on the straight-away?
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    What is video gamey about all our sprinting, and...

    What is video gamey about all our sprinting, and some people being able to completely run circles around others?
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    I tend to only give Common to characters from the...

    I tend to only give Common to characters from the region where the adventure starts. The ďcommonĒ of another continent will be quite different, and some areas wonít have a lingua Franca or ďtrade...
  20. IME gnomes are played more than dwarves or...

    IME gnomes are played more than dwarves or halflings, less often than elves or Tieflings or Dragonborn.
  21. If youíre referencing what I think, thatís a...

    If youíre referencing what I think, thatís a really sad straw man attempt connected to a different thread that has no relevance to this one.
  22. So, I think part of why some folks tend to have...

    So, I think part of why some folks tend to have trouble fitting a race in their world in a natural way is simply viewing the races as constructs with which to fill narrative niches, and also the...
  23. T answer your questions more directly, yes. The...

    T answer your questions more directly, yes. The race of my characters is generally pretty impactful on the experience. My Gnomish Swashbuckler/Bladesinger alchemist cannot be the same person as a...
  24. Iím always flummoxed by folks having a hard time...

    Iím always flummoxed by folks having a hard time seeing a place for Gnomes.

    Iím curious. What is your general conception of the identity of the Gnome race?

    im also curious about your...
  25. My experience is fighting with melee weapons....

    My experience is fighting with melee weapons. Many attacks are attempted in 6 seconds. Iíd guess...as many as 4 per second, but more usually 5-7 per 6 seconds.

    Swords move quite quickly.
    ...
  26. You've invented that insinuation.

    You've invented that insinuation.
  27. Does it bother you how perfect they are?

    Does it bother you how perfect they are?
  28. IME, in a fight, 6 seconds is an eternity. ...

    IME, in a fight, 6 seconds is an eternity.

    All kinds of stuff weighs way too much. No sword should ever weigh 8-10 lbs unless it was made for a race with a strength bonus, and has a minimum Str...
  29. Probably fire, cold, Lightning, Thunder, and...

    Probably fire, cold, Lightning, Thunder, and Acid.

    The +1 AC is meant to require either a free hand, arcane focus, or material component.
  30. The simplest idea here is a static boost to AC...

    The simplest idea here is a static boost to AC and offense, with elemental damage.

    Archery gets +2 to atk, which is apperently equal to +1 AC? How? Anyway...

    restricted to weapon and free...
  31. Since it costs more, it has to do more. A shield...

    Since it costs more, it has to do more. A shield is +2, but costs a fighter essentially nothing. Shield + defensive style is also +3, while Protection and shield is +2 and a stronger protection...
  32. What about, for a defensive gish style: ...

    What about, for a defensive gish style:

    Aegis. While wielding a melee weapon in one hand, and a component, arcane focus, or free hand, you gain a +3 bonus to AC. When an ally is the target of an...
  33. Okay, so the main elements people have proposed...

    Okay, so the main elements people have proposed that I really like are:

    AC/damage boost while wielding a weapon and a focus/material component. Elemental damage

    Bonus Action boost to the above...
  34. That feels swordmagey as hell! I like that a lot....

    That feels swordmagey as hell! I like that a lot. Then, even when you get war magic, you get to do a weapon attack and a magic thing every round regardless of which one is your Action.
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    Advantage in a check is still a benefit if you...

    Advantage in a check is still a benefit if you arenít trained in the skill.
  36. Youíre either completely failing to read my post,...

    Youíre either completely failing to read my post, or being dishonest. I literally never said anything about you agreeing with my premise. What the hell are you even talking about?


    what even is...
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    If we want the deflect melee Attack ability, is...

    If we want the deflect melee Attack ability, is model after the Drunken Master monkís Level 6 Tipsy Sway ability. Instead of costing ki, ours would require a performance check against the attackerís...
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    For the Dance Sneak Attack ability, I think...

    For the Dance Sneak Attack ability, I think simplicity is key. If we boost stealth, we get there anyway.

    no opportunity attacks is really strong by itself, and Iíd say that stealth benefits and...
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    Park ranger is more likely.

    Park ranger is more likely.
  40. If it costs a Bonus Action, it should do more...

    If it costs a Bonus Action, it should do more than duelist.


    i assume you mean use a bonus action for the melee spell attack? That could work.


    This is also fun. I think the glowing sword...
  41. Now, a bonus action is a noticeable cost. ...

    Now, a bonus action is a noticeable cost.

    Perhaps the AC bonus is always on, and you can use a bonus action to also gain +X elemental damage on each attack before the start of your next turn. Iíd...
  42. Then youíre making your EKs unnecessarily MAD,...

    Then youíre making your EKs unnecessarily MAD, while gimping their spellcasting. Why even play an EK rather than a Battle Master, at that point?

    Regardless, choosing damage bonus type is...
  43. Nah. Iím done with this. The premise is what it...

    Nah. Iím done with this. The premise is what it is. Either engage with it, leave me alone, or get blocked.
  44. Few EKs or MC builds dipping for it are gonna be...

    Few EKs or MC builds dipping for it are gonna be below 16 Int after level 4, 8 at the latest.

    As as long as the +AC lasts until start of your next turn, it could be a +3 and be fine, OR it could...
  45. There it is! Thatís (to quote Jerry Holkins)...

    There it is! Thatís (to quote Jerry Holkins) balliní outta control!

    And if it requires a bonus action and the bonus is based on a secondary stat, it can be roughly equivalent to an off hand...
  46. No. Itís still a Fighting Style. Iím not changing...

    No. Itís still a Fighting Style. Iím not changing what Fighting Styles are, Iím adding one or more to the list that will allow any fighter to play like their planned archetype from level 1. Thatís...
  47. Eh, no. Itís a Fighting Style. Viewing it through...

    Eh, no. Itís a Fighting Style. Viewing it through the lense or combat isnít ďcombat obsessedĒ, itís just the rational way to view it. Itís a combat feature.
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    My wife has a Gnomish Hexblade who was a Star...

    My wife has a Gnomish Hexblade who was a Star Pact Warlock with the short lived feat that granted a Warlock the Hexblade weapon, so she is still defined by the Star Pact lore.

    So, when she cas ts...
  49. I donít think that getting a theoretically equal...

    I donít think that getting a theoretically equal option to use in place of using your weapon is a good way to go for a Fighting Style. Adding elemental damage, or simply making your attack deal...
  50. Half of that is from the last decade, basically.

    Half of that is from the last decade, basically.
  51. Yeah that middle slog isnít called ďthe slogĒ by...

    Yeah that middle slog isnít called ďthe slogĒ by fans for nothing.

    I usually skim it on a reread. Itís probably only Eye Of The World Iíve actually read 7 times.

    But hey, Iíve also read The...
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    If foruming can teach us anything about balance...

    If foruming can teach us anything about balance and optimization, itís that few people agree on it. :D

    also thatís a great and succinct description of the ranger concept.
  53. So youíre saying you were tempted to...rage quit?...

    So youíre saying you were tempted to...rage quit? :cool:
  54. I doubt that the numbers actually keep up...

    I doubt that the numbers actually keep up relative to Extra Attack. Thus, ďless impactful as you levelĒ rather than ďdonít scaleĒ.
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    Great points. Iíd say that +5 speed in shadow and...

    Great points. Iíd say that +5 speed in shadow and training performance give good out of combat always on utility at level 3, and wonít overpower the subclass compared to Swashbuckler or Arcane...
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    yeah I canít imagine a more painfully boring and...

    yeah I canít imagine a more painfully boring and pointless outcome for a thread than pages on end of mechanical analysis in a thread about concepts and identity.


    That would work too.



    If...
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    Very cool. I think youíre spot on. So, 3rd...

    Very cool. I think youíre spot on.

    So, 3rd Level is a small movement increase in dim light or darkness, and 2/SR Shadow Dance, which comes with a flat movement increase, jump using Dex score, and...
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    Okay, so the travel stuff is gonna be weird, but...

    Okay, so the travel stuff is gonna be weird, but maybe they could apply to civilized regions and the roads between them? Not being able to get lost isnít a big deal and works fine in a city too.
    ...
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    it does a little more damage, but they both have...

    it does a little more damage, but they both have restrictions on use. PCs have more ways to get to enemies than a wolf does, for one thing. But it evens out after a while so Iím not worried about a...
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    The Beastmaster pet in the revised ranger is most...

    The Beastmaster pet in the revised ranger is most of the way there.

    Iíd simply give it greater resilience against actually dying, and add spells (as Iíve been suggesting for months) that buff...
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    So, stop quoting me. Pretty simple.

    So, stop quoting me. Pretty simple.
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    What part of ďIím disinterested in this threadĒ...

    What part of ďIím disinterested in this threadĒ is complicated or confusing? I acknowledged your very thorough post, thanked you for not trying to derail with asinine arguments that had nothing to do...
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    LOL okay zapp. You seem to have misunderstood my...

    LOL okay zapp. You seem to have misunderstood my position on the Beast Master (it doesnít need an overhaul, it just needs better HP scaling for the most part, and has plenty of room for more fun...
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    LOL sure, bud. Has nothing to do with you and...

    LOL sure, bud. Has nothing to do with you and others method of argument or repeatedly misreading simple statements.

    Ill just go go ahead and block ya now, and greatly improve my online experience.
  65. Other than Archery and Defense, they mostly do...

    Other than Archery and Defense, they mostly do get less impactful as you level.
  66. Iíll probqbly just go with 1d4 damage to any...

    Iíll probqbly just go with 1d4 damage to any target within 5 feet when you make a weapon attack, once per turn.
  67. @Garthanos...

    @Garthanos With respect, I do not care about nitpicking examples of zero to hero narratives. Iím not here to follow every possible rabbit hole of a debate that ever presents itself. Rand is a...
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    Spider Climb Water Walk Water Breathing ...

    Spider Climb

    Water Walk

    Water Breathing

    Find Familiar is even more useful than normal

    Prestidigitation for food and drink and staying clean
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    honestly Iím disinterested in this thread after...

    honestly Iím disinterested in this thread after having to explain the same sentence 6 times, but I do appreciate the thoroughness of your response. Thanks for actually reading what I wrote and...
  70. Pretty standard for the farmboy turned...

    Pretty standard for the farmboy turned adventurer, but also why is that a relevant response, and why are you so adamant on this being a debate? Iím kinda not in the mood for any more derailing, man. ...
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    I agree completely! Ah! I missed the...

    I agree completely!



    Ah! I missed the action economy of it. Iíd say the opposite then, that it would have some use in combat. But regardless, one of the middle features should be noncombat to...
  72. Im not sure that matters. The game isnít just...

    Im not sure that matters. The game isnít just damage calculations. Gaining 2 extra cantrips and a level 1 spell +a damage bonus I vastly more than any fighting style.

    Dueling is every attack.
    ...
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    A thing to recall there is that wizard traditions...

    A thing to recall there is that wizard traditions tend to be a bit smaller than rogue archetypes in spite of coming in sooner. Either way, though, I think we are on a good track with Shadow Dance. If...
  74. I like this. Yep! Too much. Thatís a...

    I like this.


    Yep!


    Too much. Thatís a full feat.


    Yep heís a rogue. The versatile non magical skill class.
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    Xeviat stealth at full speed and hiding while in...

    Xeviat stealth at full speed and hiding while in dim light are great ideas. Hiding in dim light allows more SA without making it explicitly about that.
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    Okay I think Performance is good, and bonus...

    Okay I think Performance is good, and bonus expertise if already trained in it? Idk

    For movement Iíd maybe give jump distance set by your Dex instead of Strength score in addition to speed boost?...
  77. This makes it look like you didnít read what you...

    This makes it look like you didnít read what you were quoting. 4e didnít change anything to fit a common unified cosmology. The worlds were still separate. Youíve completely misread or ignored what I...
  78. It has never been canon in a way that required...

    It has never been canon in a way that required changing settings that were canonically disconnected from other worlds. Expecting a situation like Nentir Vale having to make the Raven Queen not have...
  79. For us, something like would generally either...

    For us, something like would generally either have specific knowledge tied to it, or not, and that would determine if we just know that info without rolling, or whether we are rolling to try to...
  80. Insofar as they'll learn things they can make...

    Insofar as they'll learn things they can make note of and reference later, sure. They aren't going to become just generally more knowledgeable about the workings of magic unless they train in it,...
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    True! The rogue already has a spellcaster, might...

    True! The rogue already has a spellcaster, might as well get a little weirder with this one.


    I love this. Maybe a flat AC calculation similar to Mage Armor (effectively a +1 AC compared to...
  82. Excellent! I want my players writing down notes...

    Excellent! I want my players writing down notes on what their character has learned and referencing them later. That is a very very good outcome.



    It's a magical world. Any noble or person...
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    No. Not only does a spell-less ranger survey...

    No. Not only does a spell-less ranger survey poorly, it's completely unnecessary to do so, as anything other than an optional variant that stands alone. (ie, you drop it and get X ability set...
  84. The design team loves planescape. like, a lot. To...

    The design team loves planescape. like, a lot. To the point where they decided, without any survey data to back it up, to make planescape the canon of all 5e dnd. Even to the point where they had to...
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    I ran an introductory adventure (about halfway...

    I ran an introductory adventure (about halfway done, gonna play again soon) for my coworker, his wife, and had my wife as a ringer.

    I asked him what his wizard's magic looks like, and he...
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    I'm not looking for advise on how to build a...

    I'm not looking for advise on how to build a character within current official options. I'm discussing how to build a rogue subclass.
  87. Druids are in the PHB, and yet they're pretty low...

    Druids are in the PHB, and yet they're pretty low on the list of most played classes. PHB status doesn't explain it by itself.
  88. But it doesn't become less playable. At all. Most...

    But it doesn't become less playable. At all. Most games don't put consistency of advancement across the board on design priority pedestal, which is a very good thing.

    5e is as consistent as it...
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    But you'd still have to either create new...

    But you'd still have to either create new features to replace them, or beef up what's left, which requires even more design work and balancing than simply beefing up the weakest links that are...
  90. That isn't a reason. Do you hate that skills...

    That isn't a reason. Do you hate that skills don't break down the Difficulty Points of a challenge until it hits 0 and you defeat that challenge? It would be consistent.

    Clearly, consistency...
  91. That seems more like increasing fun by increasing...

    That seems more like increasing fun by increasing efficiency!

    As for the OP, my group does the opposite. We don't enjoy average damage, so no matter how many dice have to be rolled to get damage...
  92. Man, I wish I could do that for my FR game, but...

    Man, I wish I could do that for my FR game, but our map still has the stuff from 4e that they erased, and we use too much of the rest of the continent to use the 5e map...

    But the 4e map is...
  93. Exactly. The farm boys I can think of off hand...

    Exactly. The farm boys I can think of off hand from modern fiction are Luke Skywalker and Rand Al'thor, a Monk and Sorcerer, respectively. Wesley could easily be argued to be a Battle Master Fighter,...
  94. Why is consistency important for something like...

    Why is consistency important for something like that? WHy should saves and HP and Attack rolls work the same?
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    Then you aren't trying to make a Ranger by...

    Then you aren't trying to make a Ranger by concept, but by CharOp battle standards.

    I don't know what threads you're reading, but there is only broad disagreement about a few things, most of...
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    We donít do the post-combat stabs much, but...

    We donít do the post-combat stabs much, but otherwise same.
  97. Replies
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    not really. An overhaul isnít the same thing as...

    not really. An overhaul isnít the same thing as tweaking a couple features. An overhaul would be a major change to several features, making effectively a new class. Which isnít needed for the 5e...
  98. That seems like a good bit more oomph than what...

    That seems like a good bit more oomph than what other fighting styles get
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    ďUnless the DM says otherwiseĒ has a specific...

    ďUnless the DM says otherwiseĒ has a specific default. I donít know how else to make this clear.

    If you change the start point from ďclear line of sight determines stealth opportunityĒ to...
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    Its genuinely rad how different two peoples...

    Its genuinely rad how different two peoples experience of dnd can be.

    In my game, unless the PCs tell me that they arenít showing any mercy, enemies make death saves, and a 20 means 1hp. As well,...
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