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  1. How about word count in system dedicated to...

    How about word count in system dedicated to explaining grappling as one axis?
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    I have variously encountered this issue as well,...

    I have variously encountered this issue as well, depending on party composition. One potential quick work around is to remove static damage and replace it with variable die damage. So Light weapons...
  3. 4e: * The WARLORD * Power Sources and Class...

    4e:
    * The WARLORD
    * Power Sources and Class Roles: This led to 4e having the gumption and vision to pull the trigger on something that not even 2e could commit to doing : removing all divine...
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    I seem to recall that a lot of people also use...

    I seem to recall that a lot of people also use Mythras, which derives from BRP, as a more generic Homeric fantasy sort of game.
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    Sure, but it does inform how I contextualize the...

    Sure, but it does inform how I contextualize the conversation of this thread.

    I don't necessarily think, for example, in terms of a personal preference for "conversational" vs. "literary"...
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    I feel like the actual discussion in that thread...

    I feel like the actual discussion in that thread was about the primary GM role that new gamemasters should focus on learning: scene-framing for player agency or literary performance. The whole...
  7. That's certainly your opinion, but it's not one...

    That's certainly your opinion, but it's not one that I share.
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    So the literary content of the written text...

    So the literary content of the written text (e.g., diction, structure, style, content) was deprecated by the tone and performance? What if the DM had not read the boxed text aloud - a rote...
  9. Reading through just one comment here, I see a...

    Reading through just one comment here, I see a poster who is making a massive assumption right now. :erm:
  10. I haven't agreed with that though. Me saying that...

    I haven't agreed with that though. Me saying that I prefer LFQW does not mean that I agree "that it has no place in a 2019 game."

    But as I already showed, 5e also has ways to circumvent some of...
  11. But what is the metric you are using? How close...

    But what is the metric you are using? How close does the martial-caster balance in PF2 have to be for you to consider it sufficient? What if it is less than 5e but still far more than 3e?
  12. Okay, but so far, you haven't actually argued...

    Okay, but so far, you haven't actually argued effectively several key points of this thesis: (1) "a game published in 2019 needs at least the same level of caster-martial equality as 5th Edition has...
  13. 4e had an incredibly refined sense of its own...

    4e had an incredibly refined sense of its own mythos, a dramatic, tension-filled Chaoskampf that permeated its cosmology and every creature, character, location, and often mechanics.
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    And my point was not about how basketball was...

    And my point was not about how basketball was being played in different arenas. ;)
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    Agreed. 7th Sea 2e felt kinda "meh." My gaming...

    Agreed. 7th Sea 2e felt kinda "meh." My gaming group in Austria loved 7th Sea 1e, but 2e left them feeling flat and uninspired to run it.
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    That's probably because the entire basketball...

    That's probably because the entire basketball analogy was originally framed in terms of greater importance. ;)
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    Not so much superfluous as much as less...

    Not so much superfluous as much as less fundamental to the basics. You will naturally develop a style, but the basics of ball-handling, shooting, and play-making are important fundamentals of the...
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    I know, and what I said applies to that.

    I know, and what I said applies to that.
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    This certainly shows you don't watch much...

    This certainly shows you don't watch much basketball. Theatrics are definitely there. It's part of the dunks, the juking, the fade aways, the finishes, and playstyles of many players. Legendary...
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    My take on this thread debate using basketball:...

    My take on this thread debate using basketball: What's more important in playing basketball, being able to dribble, shoot, and set up plays or developing a theatrical style to your gameplay.
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    Pick a system used for Tekumel. Any system. Nope....

    Pick a system used for Tekumel. Any system. Nope. If you want to navigate the byzantine culture of the Petal Throne, it seems that you must first navigate the byzantine rules that always seem matched...
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    Though I love this reference, I do have to...

    Though I love this reference, I do have to quibble. Polyphemos did not hate "Nobody" (Οὖτις) more than Odysseus, because in his escape Odysseus reveals his actual name to Polyphemos, who then prays...
  23. LFQW matters to me, but I still don't think that...

    LFQW matters to me, but I still don't think that you have a solid argument here. You haven't actually demonstrated or provided any evidence that your assertion in this last clause has any factual...
  24. It turns out, according to Paizo, that the...

    It turns out, according to Paizo, that the opinions expressed on their forums represent a vocal minority. That is one reason why the "paladin" is getting renamed to the Champion in PF2.
  25. Ummm...IMHO, if you are changing 5e that much to...

    Ummm...IMHO, if you are changing 5e that much to make it work, you basically are creating a new system and a good sign that the original system is not necessarily a good fit. (FYI, I did read what...
  26. When you're audience doesn't care, then why...

    When you're audience doesn't care, then why should Paizo care? Because CapnZapp thinks that it's the crisis of the ages? Look, I don't like LFQW either, but I think you are overblowing the issue,...
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    Yeah, I have experienced playing with a number of...

    Yeah, I have experienced playing with a number of GMs who were not good at phrasing, narration, or the performative aspects of GMing but excellent with framing scenes, stakes, and pacing.
  28. There are a number of others I would have...

    There are a number of others I would have explored before 5e:
    Fate Core
    Savage Worlds
    Modern Age (Green Ronin): a bit D&D-esque but still more appropriate
    Powered by the Apocalypse: Pick...
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    Shadow of the Demon Lord: No matter how awesome...

    Shadow of the Demon Lord: No matter how awesome the rules may be, I can't get past its pessimistic, bleak, grimdark setting.
  30. /groan. Just because you can make a game for 5e...

    /groan. Just because you can make a game for 5e doesn't mean that you should.
  31. On the whole, most of the lore cohesion that 4e...

    On the whole, most of the lore cohesion that 4e provided and that 5e backtracked on.

    1. Primal Power (4E): Druids draw their power not from divine magic of the gods or the arcane magic of the...
  32. We have gone over this a dozen times, but if...

    We have gone over this a dozen times, but if CapnZapp actually bothered reading the available resources provided/linked/discussed (or even listen),* then he wouldn't have far less to complain about,...
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    Though you may have had this game in mind for...

    Though you may have had this game in mind for your OP, pemerton, Dungeon World is built on what you describe: GM frames the scene - turns to the PC: "What do you do?" - and then the PC narrates how...
  34. Sure, and it definitely sounds like they could...

    Sure, and it definitely sounds like they could have handled things differently or with greater transparency. From what I gather from various statements, their thinking was that it's easier to...
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    These paragraphs, especially the bold, lets me...

    These paragraphs, especially the bold, lets me know that you missed out on a lot of my past discussion. If you go back to a lengthy reply I made to Sadras fairly recently, I explain that much of what...
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    If a gazebo was charging at my character with a...

    If a gazebo was charging at my character with a knife, I would definitely have questions as a player.
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    It's not necessarily the literary work that has...

    It's not necessarily the literary work that has been done, but, rather, the cognitive ques are likely already present for "zombie" as part of the player's Euro-American culture. Zombie films, IME,...
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    The thing is, Hussar, you're assuming a lot about...

    The thing is, Hussar, you're assuming a lot about the nature of the conversation and inserting things into my text that was not necessarily there, aren't you? In literature, we refer to that as...
  39. The beta was a heavy-stress test. On a YoutTube...

    The beta was a heavy-stress test. On a YoutTube video about the playtest from PaizoCon, they kinda outlined that the playtest was partially meant to show the potential problem points in the game.
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    Nope.

    Nope.
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    Except that isn't what it amounted to at all,...

    Except that isn't what it amounted to at all, Max. The point is that the discourse of conversations are contextualized based upon the interlocutors. So I would suggest that you learn to read and...
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    This is hardly a gotcha moment you imagine. And I...

    This is hardly a gotcha moment you imagine. And I apologize now that someone had to explain to you how the conjunction "but" can work in your own native language at this late of a stage in your life....
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    Except I would say that they are still speaking...

    Except I would say that they are still speaking conversational English, but the conversation will also be contextualized for the various interlocutors.
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    Okay. Good for you, I guess. But even if pemerton...

    Okay. Good for you, I guess. But even if pemerton never addressed the question explicitly, it does not seem all that difficult with a modicum of effort to piece together pemerton's answers within the...
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    I would also like to repudiate the fallacy of...

    I would also like to repudiate the fallacy of equating vocabulary size with conversational or non-literary narration because this seems to be surfacing in various forms over the past few pages.
    ...
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    Considering your emphasis on interactionism as an...

    Considering your emphasis on interactionism as an integral part of the RPG process, where an important part of the gameplay is PCs interacting with the gameworld, I have been somewhat surprised by...
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    An automechanic will have a range of vocabulary...

    An automechanic will have a range of vocabulary that "falls outside of normal, everyday conversation," but I don't think that we would credibly accuse them for using the technical jargon of their...
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    What are you talking about? I even explained the...

    What are you talking about? I even explained the specific context in which the goalposts were moved, Max. Did you not even bother to read it or did your eyes just glaze over?
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    You're correct. I read a question mark there. But...

    You're correct. I read a question mark there. But the issue is not the ebb-and-flow of conversation but how the goalposts for what was being asked for was moved after an answer was supplied. That is...
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    Why would it be? What particular post would it be...

    Why would it be? What particular post would it be moving?

    Bedrockgames already demonstrated quite convincingly how you were equivocating with your terms at least 50 pages back. You're just...
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    I am not inclined to view the latter as a...

    I am not inclined to view the latter as a literary endeavor.

    This again delves into a conversation piece that I have repeatedly brought up in this thread between NARRATIVE and LITERATURE. Not all...
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    Okay. But the point has been that "evocative...

    Okay. But the point has been that "evocative language" is not required to convey game information to players. Hussar's original question was how it could be done, and I provided an answer. Then it...
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    Tough call between Blades in the Dark or...

    Tough call between Blades in the Dark or Invisible Sun.
  54. I am puzzled why this has become my...

    I am puzzled why this has become my responsibility to reassure you rather than your responsibility as a functional adult to back up your worries with actual evidence from PF2. It seems pretty simple....
  55. You are fear-mongering about PF2 without evidence...

    You are fear-mongering about PF2 without evidence again.
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    I don't think that we should equate clarity of...

    I don't think that we should equate clarity of the situation with evocative language. Sometimes evocative, literary language can also confuse the players and create different interpretations of the...
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    Is this another new goalpost? But not...

    Is this another new goalpost?

    But not necessarily the literary text of D&D. The point being is that the cognitive context for this TTRPG is informed by the entirety of a person's experiences...
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    I attempted to summarize and steer the...

    I attempted to summarize and steer the conversation back to pemerton's premise in his OP. But it seems like people are arguing not about what he said, but misconstruing what he said so they can argue...
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    This seems like some major BS that relies on a...

    This seems like some major BS that relies on a trite cliche to make a truth statement. The ontology or nature of a picture as a picture does not change into literature or evocative language just...
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    I will address your earlier post, but I will...

    I will address your earlier post, but I will shortly say here that this entire conversation has never been predicated on the presumption that constant immersion was required for TTRPGs or should be...
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    That's what I am asking you.

    That's what I am asking you.
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    And?

    And?
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    "It's a part of the universe that is about like...

    "It's a part of the universe that is about like combining outer space with heaven."

    "Oh, cool. Okay. Got it."

    Did you miss the part - which would not surprise me at all at this point - where...
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    Or, Hussar, you can just tell players what the...

    Or, Hussar, you can just tell players what the monster or thing is. It's not like evocative language is required for saying "Oh, Thor? You know that he is the god of storms in this land." Or "a...
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    To remind you that this has probably been...

    To remind you that this has probably been answered before in the thread if you bother to read the thread. I took the effort to go back to the OP and some of the early posts to read through because it...
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    It's not my job to do your work for you.

    It's not my job to do your work for you.
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    So if you were ordering a single pizza for the...

    So if you were ordering a single pizza for the entire group to share, and you knew that one of your friends had dietary restrictions that precluded those toppings, that you would still order the...
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    Yes, it is just like pemerton said in the OP: ...

    Yes, it is just like pemerton said in the OP:
    ;)

    But the literary quality of a description that compares a horse to a Lamborghini would be wasted on someone who lacks the appropriate cognitive...
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    Please see what I wrote later:

    Please see what I wrote later:
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    I don't think that we necessarily have to go to a...

    I don't think that we necessarily have to go to a high end of prose quality to say that the wordcraft quality of GM and PC narration is not of primary importance. But again, I think that pemerton...
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    I said who preferred eating pepperoni. That said,...

    I said who preferred eating pepperoni. That said, I am certain that if anyone who preferred pepperoni salami pizza genuinely believed that they were being unfairly excluded from a group ordering a...
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    No. It's because I already explained how it is a...

    No. It's because I already explained how it is a false equivalence.

    It's not waffling to say that we should not equate "not regarding the wordcraft of GM narration as important" with "not caring...
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    Your false equivalence remains false. Try again...

    Your false equivalence remains false. Try again next time.

    How is accusing the other position of a position they don't hold - i.e., not caring about the narrative - not insulting? That's...
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    (1) This is something of a false equivalence...

    (1) This is something of a false equivalence though. It's about like saying that ordering a cheese pizza for those who don't like pepperoni salami or who have vegetarian, halal, or kosher diets then...
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    You are going to an opposing extreme to argue...

    You are going to an opposing extreme to argue your case.

    Let me put it this way...

    (1) More Requirements for Game Expectations (with Wordcraft) > (2) Less Requirements for Game Expectations...
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    If chefs were to expect that people must use high...

    If chefs were to expect that people must use high end ingredients in their cooking (or top quality kitchenware), then it tends to exclude the cooking efforts of those who can't afford, find, or even...
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    You may be seeing this differently than I am, but...

    You may be seeing this differently than I am, but it seems to me at least that claiming that high quality wordcraft for GM narration is highly important for TTRPG gameplay is far more exclusionary of...
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    It can (for some people) but I don't think that...

    It can (for some people) but I don't think that the quality of narrated wordcraft is fundamentally necessary to initiate a campaign. Companies hire advertisers to get people to buy the product. If...
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    Is this really the only point that you want to...

    Is this really the only point that you want to engage? That said, I'm not sure if I agree with that either, Imaro.
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    I do agree with your point quite readily that...

    I do agree with your point quite readily that players have different preferences in terms of engagement.

    Though pemerton may indeed have the presumption in the bold, I'm not sure if his argument...
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    Is this not you equivocating again on the meaning...

    Is this not you equivocating again on the meaning of "literature" and "literary"? If we take "literary" to mean "wordcraft" (as per pemerton) then why are you using it to mean "written literature"...
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    Except they did do magic in Eberron, which is...

    Except they did do magic in Eberron, which is where the hegemonic Artificer concept in D&D derives. Artificers in Eberron, however, had a different approach to their magic than other spellcasters....
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    The point is and has been that it is inaccurate...

    The point is and has been that it is inaccurate to refer to 'narrative devices' as a "literary" when discussing TTRPGs as a medium/genre. If you believe and/or demonstrate that TTRPGs are literature,...
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    Now it is my turn to ask how you are defining...

    Now it is my turn to ask how you are defining your terms, because you appear to be doing some heavy equivocation of terms here, especially around what you mean by "literary," keeping in mind how...
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    Your circular reasoning remains circular.

    Your circular reasoning remains circular.
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    I agree with you that "there is no outside text,"...

    I agree with you that "there is no outside text," or in other words, there is no text outside of context. However, I don't understand why you concede that worldbuilding is a storytelling/narrative...
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    That's fine, but this thread is about fitting 4e...

    That's fine, but this thread is about fitting 4e on the 5e engine and not reinventing the engine entirely from the ground up.

    Nowhere in my post do I speak for anyone other than myself, Yaarel.
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    You seem to have a one-track mind. I'm not...

    You seem to have a one-track mind. I'm not interested in the 4e that you are trying to sell.
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    FYI, your suggestions do not interest me in the...

    FYI, your suggestions do not interest me in the slightest.

    I would personally like to see a 4E-esque game that reduced the level spread to 10. Much in the spirit of what Zardnaar has been saying,...
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    But it's kinda meaningless. It's like every...

    But it's kinda meaningless. It's like every boardgame is initiated by someone indicating a desire to play it. In academia, as we often ask, "so what?" I am missing the "so what" of this statement....
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    So you're not moving goalposts: you're just not...

    So you're not moving goalposts: you're just not listening then? Gotcha.
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    It still qualifies unless either Lanefan or you...

    It still qualifies unless either Lanefan or you plans on arbitrarily moving the goalposts.
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    Yeah, since that person is often the DM in...

    Yeah, since that person is often the DM in TTRPGs, I suspect that the desire to include this as integral stems from a desire to find another way to privilege and aggrandize the DM.
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    Done. Next quest? I don't think that it's...

    Done. Next quest?

    I don't think that it's necessary for us to build up the importance of this "someone" for RPGs as if it were something unique and particular to them.
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    So a producer?

    So a producer?
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    I'm not sure if I could answer, but your...

    I'm not sure if I could answer, but your question, Imaro, is definitely a question worth asking. But we can also find tremendous diversity in video games, film/television, and other media as well....
  97. I was under the impression that it was more about...

    I was under the impression that it was more about how they were implemented rather than psionics per se.
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    You are asserting a general opinion of preference...

    You are asserting a general opinion of preference as if it were an objective fact of the system. Even if I agree that it were broken (not saying either way), I would not use language that strong for...
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    IME, sometimes yes. Not to speak for ...

    IME, sometimes yes.

    Not to speak for hawkeyefan, but one of the points that I raised in this thread has been about how different storytelling mediums have different tools at their disposal....
  100. I'm fairly certain that one of the reasons why...

    I'm fairly certain that one of the reasons why Paizo developed their psychic adventures line for PF1 was because they actually aren't the biggest fan of psionics per se. Most of things labeled as...
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