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    And and, monsters could pull the same tricks. ...

    And and, monsters could pull the same tricks.
    3e had SoDs, and vs bad saves that only got worse relative to rising (let alone optimized) DCs, and negative levels worked a little differently,...
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    What? Really? All of it? ::imagines who...

    What? Really? All of it?

    ::imagines who forests vanishing with the click of a mouse::

    ;)
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    Precisely my point. 3.5 went out of print ("end...

    Precisely my point. 3.5 went out of print ("end of life," maybe I mistakenly mixed a tech term into a publishing discussion, there?), and Paizo kept selling PF1 to 3.5 fans for another 10 years. ...
  4. I always figured it was inspired by Sting,...

    I always figured it was inspired by Sting, Orcrist and Glamdring in The Hobbit.

    I mean...
    ...that fits the MO of Orcrist the Goblin-Cleaver, in reverse, right?
  5. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    Yes. Typo. Fixed. Thanks for catching that. ...

    Yes. Typo. Fixed. Thanks for catching that.

    I'm not /intentionally/ using any common variants....
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    It is, because there was a very significant event...

    It is, because there was a very significant event that impacted the hobby in 2000: the release of 3e.

    In contrast, I'd be more inclined to accept data from '97 applying to 98 & 99, for instance,...
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    I agree with Sacrosanct that 2e could be shifted...

    I agree with Sacrosanct that 2e could be shifted to the left in that ranking of lethality. But, as I said, above, there's some truth to it, in terms of relative PC durability at first level. In...
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    Yeah, I've never known us all to agree. ;) 3e,...

    Yeah, I've never known us all to agree. ;) 3e, for instance, was plenty deadly, it went all-in on giving monsters the same options as PCs, so much of the assumed advantages the system quietly gave...
  9. There are melee weapons that can be thrown. So...

    There are melee weapons that can be thrown. So there's a very practical distinction between "attack with a melee weapon" or "melee attack with a weapon," as throwing an axe at someone is ranged...
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    Yep, understandable. Storyteller sold a /lot/ of...

    Yep, understandable. Storyteller sold a /lot/ of books in the 90s, and they were, especially for rulebooks, pretty good cover-to-cover reads, but good luck finding a specific thing you vaguely...
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    I intended layers. ;) I also think it's a...

    I intended layers. ;) I also think it's a perfectly workable variant.

    Oh yeah, I've seen that in action. Most dramatic example: a one shot Firefly scenario that included a prison break - one of...
  12. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    Well, I mean, OK. 1e: 1st level fighter,...

    Well, I mean, OK.

    1e: 1st level fighter, longsword & shield, splint, 16 STR, 14 CON: AC 3, 1-10 (5.5) hps, hits self on natural 17 for 2-9 (5.5) damage (1.1 DPR).
    5e: 1st level fighter,...
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    Odd, why would you describe something as the...

    Odd, why would you describe something as the exact opposite of what it was? Powers were very structured in presentation, and the mechanics had fairly clear/exact jargon definitions. Anything but...
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    So they were being dishonest? Alignment was a...

    So they were being dishonest?
    Alignment was a rule - you had to choose one - and it had mechanical effects, including things the character /could/ do, items it could use, etc, as well as...
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    Missed that, sorry. Between 1999 and 'early...

    Missed that, sorry.
    Between 1999 and 'early 2000s' 3e was released. I suspect it had an impact. So 2003 GenCon, sounds relevant, FWIW. 1999's survey, while it might be stronger data, just isn't...
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    "Balanced at the Encounter" just means "pacing...

    "Balanced at the Encounter" just means "pacing doesn't matter." Even 4e didn't go there, though the closely-related 7th ed of Gamma World did, and it worked pretty well, actually.

    Any indication...
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    You have a choice of rules to use (or not): ...

    You have a choice of rules to use (or not):

    Carrying capacity, it's 15 lb/STR, if the fighter's gear & the other character & his gear exceed that, he's pushding/dragging and his move drops to 5' -...
  18. Sounds plausible (that he'd like a mechanic like...

    Sounds plausible (that he'd like a mechanic like that), 4e had a lotta* re-rolls, from the notorious Elven Accuracy on, and it seemed like there were just more of 'em after he took over. In...
  19. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    I may still be stuck in the idiom of the D&D...

    I may still be stuck in the idiom of the D&D Pedantry
    Thread, but it seems like there's a whole lotta RPGs that don't particularly fit between those.


    Good to know.
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    My memory's bad, but I'm fairly certain that the...

    My memory's bad, but I'm fairly certain that the "Summer of 1999" occurred /before/ "the early 2000s." (I mean, I've been "fairly certain" and turned out to have been wrong, before, so y'all might...
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    I suspect that'd wear you out. ;) A quick...

    I suspect that'd wear you out. ;)
    A quick search of some modern archery guidelines, and, yes, you increase wear on a 'natural material' bow if you leave it strung a long time, apparently even a...
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    They've had more or less mechanical impact in...

    They've had more or less mechanical impact in some eds (and I'm sure, some places/groups/etc back in the day, when we were a less disunited-by-the-internet, merely more diverse, community). Obvious...
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    No expert, but I've heard yes with regard to the...

    No expert, but I've heard yes with regard to the bow. But I'm fine with arbitrary.

    Medieval rossbows, IIRC, weren't like guns - there's no safety, the bolt can just fall out, etc...
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    If every single mechanic is upturned, then it's...

    If every single mechanic is upturned, then it's hardly just a re-boot to re-start the supplement cycle, is it? Sounds more like substantive change.
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    I actually kinda like common. In general, things...

    I actually kinda like common. In general, things seem more fantasy (or mythic, perhaps) to me, if everyone can talk to everyone else.

    You could conceive of Common as just "the gift of language"...
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    You bank the fire before you go to bed,...

    You bank the fire
    before you go to bed, uncover the coals in the morning, add kindling, and blow on it.

    IDK why I happen to remember that, but it's actually a good example. If I didn't, your...
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    There is the important act of stringing the bow,...

    There is the important act of stringing the bow, you could make that an Action, and require it be un-strung to stow (only slightly arbitrary). If you also impose more plausible RoF on crossbows and...
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    I blame Elan... ...OK, and every version of the...

    I blame Elan...
    ...OK, and every version of the Bard class that preceded him.
  29. Don't mind me, I'm just being pedantic... "How...

    Don't mind me, I'm just being pedantic...

    "How the /Hell/ is it you speak Infer-"

    "... oh, nevermind, answered my own question, really."

    But it doesn't specify if that that's oral route,...
  30. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    Or that, yeah. Actually, now that you mention...

    Or that, yeah. Actually, now that you mention it, my second 4e character was an "old-school high-elf fighter/magic-user," he was a wand wizard, and he did explain his Scorching Burst as "an old Wand...
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    I'm getting a sense of deja-vu here... …...

    I'm getting a sense of deja-vu here...

    … yeah, it's like it's 2003 and someone's going on about the 'cash grab' …

    ...which went on to command such loyalty from fans that Paizo has been...
  32. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    The difference in ease of use is certainly there,...

    The difference in ease of use is certainly there, that's been the game's direction the whole time, it's one thing the WotC era hasn't deviated from.
    Maybe it was just 'pervasive' that threw me.
    ...
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    "Good night everybody!" - Yakko Warner

    "Good night everybody!" - Yakko Warner
  34. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    Ok... Magic has always been /so/ pervasive in...

    Ok...

    Magic has always been /so/ pervasive in D&D. It's an infinitely-renewable, daily (or 4hr-nap) resource. You kill a few monsters, one of them'll eventually drop a magic item. There's...
  35. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    Definitely. I played 3e & 4e each for their full...

    Definitely. I played 3e & 4e each for their full runs. 5e was like coming back to AD&D, in contrast. If I'd never left, it'd seem radically different, because I'd be noticing all the little (and...
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    My 3.x group always did that. One of the more...

    My 3.x group always did that.

    One of the more extreme ways I've ever seen of dealing with a bad HD roll at level-up, was to repudiate the level. That's how the player put it "I do not accept that...
  37. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    And, at high level, in 5e, they get a lot safer,...

    And, at high level, in 5e, they get a lot safer, which is /also/ similar to 1e, as you accumulate hps and get better saves and more protective items and more spells to negate/reverse bad things...
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    OK, that is just too good an observation to just...

    OK, that is just too good an observation to just XP and tacitly agree with.

    Yes, I totally get that, and agree it's very much a thing. I kinda alluded to it in the OP, with how you'd build a fire...
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    Sharpshooters'd use finesse weapons as melee...

    Sharpshooters'd use finesse weapons as melee backup. The way STR characters use heavy thrown weapons as ranged backup.

    Which, I think, illustrates the issue. Heavy thrown weapons are a pretty...
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    There are no new ideas. It certainly /did/ it...

    There are no new ideas.

    It certainly /did/ it badly (if at all) in '93. Since 3.0, it hasn't been so bad, mechanically (OK, diplomancers were pretty horrid), in theory, if DM's'd use the...
  41. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    There was no CR in 1e. You could totally face...

    There was no CR in 1e. You could totally face orcs (or heck, gnolls, zombies, an ogre, etc) at 1st level. ('Face' not necessarily to be taken literally.) Part of the appeal, I should think. (Of...
  42. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    The logic seemed irrefutable to my 15yo self. ;) ...

    The logic seemed irrefutable to my 15yo self. ;) "So, hey, Tony, it says here that peasants have 1-6 hps and or '0th' level." "Well, yeah, they're not as good as characters with classes, they don't...
  43. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    Well, or the alternative wasn't. More likely, it...

    Well, or the alternative wasn't. More likely, it was another thing that varied a lot.
    I recall Max 1st HD (because Rangers) being a very common variant.

    One group even figured that, at 0...
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    A standard game with no optional rules turned on....

    A standard game with no optional rules turned on.

    Feats & MCing are explicitly optional. You don't ban them, you just dont bother opting into them.
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    What do rapiers have to do with caster supremacy,...

    What do rapiers have to do with caster supremacy, Monty Haul, treasure hunting, pixel-bitching, 5MWD, magic-item Xmass trees, Vancian spell-grenades, d20s, Fruedian psionics, 10' poles, white-room...
  46. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    I was more than half expecting I'd made some dumb...

    I was more than half expecting I'd made some dumb math or table lookup error. ::shrug::

    CR: 1/2.

    I already mentioned that, yes. You want slower pacing, it's readily doable, no heavy...
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    Did you notice the remarkable visual similarity...

    Did you notice the remarkable visual similarity between 4e & PF1 monster stat blocks? With the shading and all? Most obvious difference was purple instead of green.
  48. PF2 The 4e Fighter's "Combat Superiority" OA spoiled...

    The 4e Fighter's "Combat Superiority" OA spoiled the target's movement if it hit. They're mark-punishment interrupt, OTOH, did not, but could be in response to a shift or attack that didn't normally...
  49. Yes. Play a Gangrel. Take the Flaw "Twisted...

    Yes. Play a Gangrel. Take the Flaw "Twisted Upbringing."
  50. So we shouldn't mention the Pixie/Storm-Giant?

    So we shouldn't mention the Pixie/Storm-Giant?
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    It's Sisyphean, but starting with the familiar...

    It's Sisyphean, but starting with the familiar concepts of D&D, and explaining the broader alternatives in those terms, would be using it as a baseline, but not assuming it as the only thing.
    ...
  52. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    Well, IDK, compare a simple, iconic Orc, for...

    Well, IDK, compare a simple, iconic Orc, for instance. In 1e, it hits a stereotypical 1st level front-liner in banded/splint & shield on a natural 17, for 1d8 (4.5) damage (0.9 DPR), and as a 1 HD...
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    So, maybe piercing just needs to be a lot worse...

    So, maybe piercing just needs to be a lot worse than slashing in some way? Because that seems like a difference, there, too. (Or the versatile blades need to be pierce & slashing, vs the finesse...
  54. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    Well, they hit more often than 1e monsters at low...

    Well, they hit more often than 1e monsters at low levels (and, thanks to BA, keep hitting at least some), and have more hps of their own as you go up levels, so stick around longer, inflicting more...
  55. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    That's not a bad assumption, though character...

    That's not a bad assumption, though character death is hardly unknown in D&D (to put it mildly), at some point, you reach some sort of, IDK, homeostasis, that results in PCs surviving & leveling...
  56. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    To be clear, the balance of the turn being used...

    To be clear, the balance of the turn being used in resting was the obscure rule, the d3 for 'binding wounds' during that rest was very much a variant - a Len Lakofka variant, I'd guess, at least, a...
  57. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    Not a lot more than merely setting short & long...

    Not a lot more than merely setting short & long rests to different durations. You push out the time scale of the adventure.

    The bigger difference is table time devoted to bookkeeping, and that's...
  58. Crossposting. Let's take it to the Pedantic...

    Crossposting.

    Let's take it to the Pedantic complaints thread, and get you some XP to go with that laugh. ;)


    Hey, and that explains why Gimli was so into her. Well, makes it at tad less...
  59. Let's take it to the Pedantic complaints thread,...

    Let's take it to the Pedantic complaints thread, and get you some XP to go with that laugh. ;)


    Hey, and that explains why Gimli was so into her. Well, makes it at tad less creepy.



    ...
  60. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    "Something akin to" is, I think, a pretty low...

    "Something akin to" is, I think, a pretty low bar. Admittedly, the balance of a 10 minute turn is a lot less resting than 5e's one hour. But it's still a rest, and it's still short. Some variant I...
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    Well, in the sense that flames won't stop it from...

    Well, in the sense that flames won't stop it from regenerating... ;P

    ...we'll see...

    That's an interesting question. 5e has more than a few little details lifted straight from 4e, and more...
  62. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    Not a great point, actually. Old-school did...

    Not a great point, actually. Old-school did actually have something akin to a 'short rest.' Play progressed in 10-min 'turns,' and if a combat didn't take 10 rounds, the balance was assumed to be...
  63. That's an unwarranted generalization. Playing is...

    That's an unwarranted generalization.
    Playing is less demanding than running, generally speaking. It varies with the game. Chargen can be incredibly involved in some system, for instance. Other...
  64. Nope. The readied character would have to either...

    Nope. The readied character would have to either move ahead of the one he was trying to move with, then ready, or take the readied action and move only 30' to the other's 60.
    To be fair, Delay...
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    While I don't disagree that a wizard could learn...

    While I don't disagree that a wizard could learn magic & have his spell book while remaining ignorant of Arcane lore outside the practical necessities of his trade, I can't agree that opens up a wide...
  66. Yes, there's several examples where the effect or...

    Yes, there's several examples where the effect or hit line just creates an 'area' and avoids the Zone keyword.
  67. Heh. Who can forget those iconic gnome...

    Heh. Who can forget those iconic gnome characters in LotR…?

    What were their names again?


    That's probably a big part of it, yes. Any race other than human can tend to fall into racial...
  68. Sure. Anything other than human and race tended...

    Sure. Anything other than human and race tended to loom large.

    You could always shunt elves & gnomes and the like into some fey Otherworld....
    Yes, like 4e which made gnomes fey (and, briefly,...
  69. They're supposed to be examples of nitpicking...

    They're supposed to be examples of nitpicking over small details, rather than real problems like...
    ... unlikely to qualify as pedantic, unless you mean it ironically... Nope, that sounds serious.
    ...
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    It seems to me that, unless you want to "punish"...

    It seems to me that, unless you want to "punish" lack of system mastery, you'd give a class with an ability that directly built on a skill that skill, up front, and if a sub-class had such an...
  71. possibly on the theory that defense style stacks...

    possibly on the theory that defense style stacks with all the others?
  72. I'm sorry, we can't accept that answer, we were...

    I'm sorry, we can't accept that answer, we were looking for silly, pedantic, complaints.

    Thank you for playing, and enjoy a selection of your choice from the free offerings on DMsGuild, as a...
  73. Some players might. Others will mysteriously...

    Some players might. Others will mysteriously change characters at some point.

    But, more typically, campaigns will just wrap at some point after the system starts to fall apart.
  74. Well, sure, balance falls appart by the time...

    Well, sure, balance falls appart by the time you've covered even half that. ;P

    And, it's not a new problem. The classic game always had a narrow sweetspot that didn't extend past name level. ...
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    The original Fantasy Hero (1985) had the...

    The original Fantasy Hero (1985) had the "Delayed" power modifier to do exactly that.
    D&D went from the "memorized" rubric to "prepared" a long time ago. Since 3.0, at least, though it might've...
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    Brief side observation/perspective: Even just...

    Brief side observation/perspective: Even just being able to model a valid genre character concept is still a challenge RPGs aren't exactly all up to, even though some have been doing it for a long...
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    I've never glanced at Exalted. All I've heard...

    I've never glanced at Exalted. All I've heard about, 2nd-hand, is that it was WWGS's ST-like stab at fantasy, the PCs are demigods, and most of all, in a very derogatory way, that it's wild,...
  78. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    Nothing can stop a DM from house ruling, or,...

    Nothing can stop a DM from house ruling, or, y'know, just running a different system, but a system might not present as much perceived need or opportunity to do so.

    And, a system can set the stage...
  79. In a fanstasy sub-genre with magic as pervasive...

    In a fanstasy sub-genre with magic as pervasive as D&D, in which the Fighter has a spell-casting sub-class, sure it is.
    That's the point: to have a lead-in to EK.
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    He can take the post of "Sailing Master,"...

    He can take the post of "Sailing Master," subordinate to the captain, even a warrant officer, but with all the skills to run the ship. ("Master & Commander" like the movie is when an officer below...
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    Oh, religious-zealot knight-in-shinning armor...

    Oh, religious-zealot knight-in-shinning armor w/supernatural divine powers is a narrow concept, even w/o the old LG-only*, it's just familiar and spot-on enough that it's understandable devoting a...
  82. doctorbadwolf... thanks, I think? ;)

    doctorbadwolf... thanks, I think? ;)
  83. Replies
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    I couldn't quite recall if there was or whether...

    I couldn't quite recall if there was or whether it was "pick something else" or "just ignore it" (in essence lose a skill).

    But, given that there is, it doesn't mean someone didn't think "oh, if I...
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    Probably to keep a hard-coded class skill from...

    Probably to keep a hard-coded class skill from colliding with a hard-coded background skill.
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    Vote Lawful Evil Party for 4 more years of safety...

    Vote Lawful Evil Party for 4 more years of safety and stability.
  86. I know 5e didn't emphasize foci much, but a...

    I know 5e didn't emphasize foci much, but a Weapon & Wand or Sword & Athame* style for the proto-EK might be cool. You give up the shield, but gain a magical perk of some kind. Like most rounds you...
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    Good point. I hate to sound like one of...

    Good point.

    I hate to sound like one of those old guys who bases how everything should be on how it was "back in my day" but, in the definitive (to me) version of the game, 1e AD&D, there were 5...
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    You could substitute an Advantage-esque mechanic...

    You could substitute an Advantage-esque mechanic for extra attack, I suppose...
  89. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    "Mana Systems" seemed pervasive back in the day,...

    "Mana Systems" seemed pervasive back in the day, at least in my area - though I heard about 'em a lot more than had to play under them. I feel like they were often regarded as broken, but, 30+ years...
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    That's a legit concern, that I wasnt attempting...

    That's a legit concern, that I wasnt attempting to address.
    The idea is that RES, FTH, &POW are only for supernatural sub-systems. They don't add to skills, which are mundane, at all.
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    Part of my thought process was that it would...

    Part of my thought process was that it would accept that innate imbalance, rather than paper it over.

    If you try to play say, a more socially adept character than yourself (relative to your DM,...
  92. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    I've long noted a distinction between liking...

    I've long noted a distinction between liking something in spite of flaws, and liking it for the flaws.

    But, I suppose there's a further distinction between liking the flaws for their 'silver...
  93. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    Maybe the purpose of basketball isn't all that...

    Maybe the purpose of basketball isn't all that clear, either?
    ;)
  94. Thread: OSR Gripes

    by Tony Vargas
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    They're archetypal, they created a legacy,...

    They're archetypal, they created a legacy, defined the hobby.
    They were brilliant and innovative in their day.

    You could design a technically mechanically better system, today, but it'd be...
  95. Replies
    156
    Views
    10,833

    Dude, I've never played DL, if I'm even tracking...

    Dude, I've never played DL, if I'm even tracking the acronyms. And, it shouldn't matter which specific games someone has played, if the point isn't to be exclusionary.
    No, GNS. I thought that was...
  96. Content Removed by Creator.

    Content Removed by Creator.
  97. Critical Failure! 404 Post does not exist!

    Critical Failure! 404 Post does not exist!
  98. Replies
    88
    Views
    3,396

    I'm glad I stared the thread, if only for the...

    I'm glad I stared the thread, if only for the kobold blood of dragons story. Thanks.

    But, the original topic ultimately attracted no attention from the folks I hoped might see value in it.
    ...
  99. Oh, snap, there's nothing here.

    Oh, snap, there's nothing here.
  100. Replies
    71
    Views
    2,009

    Whether you experience an issue or not, the facts...

    Whether you experience an issue or not, the facts remain.
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