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    Okay... yes? I feel you're trying to say...

    Okay... yes? I feel you're trying to say something but it's just not quite complete...



    Huh, I've completely missed that rule, and have also completely missed all the threads talking about how...
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    Is that all? You want someone to tell you what...

    Is that all? You want someone to tell you what 5e does well? Sheesh, you're like that character Warren from Empire Records that holds up the record store because he wants a job there -- your...
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    It's a mechanical artifact because "Expert...

    It's a mechanical artifact because "Expert Sprinter" isn't a rogue fluff bit -- it's not mentioned anywhere. Hence, the effect of the rogue being an expert sprinter is a mechanical artifact -- it...
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    When did I say my problem was a race? You added...

    When did I say my problem was a race? You added the race to add the chase mechanics to show me my problem with how the rogue is 50% faster in combat time isn't a valid complaint because they aren't,...
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    I'm going with no. Putting aside a theoretical...

    I'm going with no. Putting aside a theoretical possibility that you could, if everything was perfect, do so, I think that the incentives involved prevent any reasonable or even unreasonable...
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    To be fair, lightly armored rogues also outran...

    To be fair, lightly armored rogues also outran heavily armored rogues by the same margin.

    Honestly, at this point, I'm far more amused at the justifications than I ever was annoyed about the...
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    Sorry, but when did I say anything about how the...

    Sorry, but when did I say anything about how the chase rules work? I apologize if I've mistaken given you that impression.
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    Right. Issue: a mechanical artifact leads...

    Right.

    Issue: a mechanical artifact leads to an odd result.

    Response: use a different resolution mechanism and just try to ignore it otherwise.

    Good talk?
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    And all of your points are still true if you...

    And all of your points are still true if you can't double dash.
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    Not if you run the race in combat rounds. There...

    Not if you run the race in combat rounds. There the fighter loses badly.

    This is my gripe, really, that the issue is a mechanical artifact others defend by pointing out cases where it doesn't...
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    Yes, lack of STR is a small hinderance for...

    Yes, lack of STR is a small hinderance for athletics, but it doesn't address that fighters, who can get Remarkable Athlete, are 1/3 slower than rogues.

    And the bit where it drops out if you go to...
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    Double post

    Double post
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    So thematic it never existed before, isn't...

    So thematic it never existed before, isn't nentioned in the fluff, and disappears immediately in the chase mechanics?

    Sure. Meanwhile, fighters are powerful athletes that are handily outrun by...
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    Nope. No problem with classes doing different...

    Nope. No problem with classes doing different things. I like rogues being able to do lots of things. Fight and dash. Spell and dash. Some other thing and dash. Very thematic, very cool.

    But...
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    My design problem: rogues get to run fast while...

    My design problem: rogues get to run fast while fighters don't.

    Design constraints: minimum intrusion

    Your solution: add concrete sub-system for using athletics to run faster. Because rogues...
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    My problem isn't that rogue can go "fast," it's...

    My problem isn't that rogue can go "fast," it's that no one else can.

    That said, I haven't done anything about it. It's just gone in the bucket of 'Many of my biggest complaints about 5e are...
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    Yes. That you don't see a way is somewhat...

    Yes. That you don't see a way is somewhat telling.

    The ruby is cursed. The ruby belongs to a powerful entity who now declares enmity. The ruby.... so many ways to make finding exactly what the...
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    Well, yes, if you move the goalposts then the...

    Well, yes, if you move the goalposts then the declaration violates established fiction. Upthread it was clearly stated in regards to the player decides that prior fiction and genre logic both act as...
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    Yes, there is good reason -- to allow the player...

    Yes, there is good reason -- to allow the player control over what happens on a success. You may have a different preference, and that's fine, but there is a very good reason. Coming from the D&D...
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    Counter-point: there's nothing preventing the...

    Counter-point: there's nothing preventing the asked for solution from being THE solution in the fiction. This is an important distiction from the real world. In fiction, the solution is whatever...
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    I agree with this. How a player makes a choice...

    I agree with this. How a player makes a choice for the character can tell us something about that character without a challenge. I've said this before -- choices are still good play, they just...
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    Wait, you're asking what detriment exists if you...

    Wait, you're asking what detriment exists if you don't gate everything through the GM's approval?

    I'm going to need to sit down awhile on that one. I mean... but... really?



    This is,...
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    This goes right back to the OP where the question...

    This goes right back to the OP where the question was about the difference between what your character does, as in proposes an action that the DM then determines the result of, or what you character...
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    I think that the default for D&D is that the GM...

    I think that the default for D&D is that the GM can ask the player for a change to the mental state of the PC. I think this is important to D&D because the GM enjoys broad authority to directly...
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    Using D&D as tge baseline, how can I, as GM, have...

    Using D&D as tge baseline, how can I, as GM, have an NPC mauden wink at a PC and melt the PC's heart without it being an ask of the player?

    This is why the baseline argument fails -- D&D is a...
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    I think, in D&D, it would be a serious overstep...

    I think, in D&D, it would be a serious overstep to do so. In the scene above, the player threw me for a loop. Previously, the player had established that the character had no recollection of their...
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    Like? I mean, you do know that the above method...

    Like? I mean, you do know that the above method for D&D is straight from the rules, right?
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    Dang it. I had yesterday in the dictionary pool. ...

    Dang it. I had yesterday in the dictionary pool. :(

    But, to address your bolded part above, the invitation is to do something. Can you fail to do something? Yes, especially if it's difficult or...
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    Let me clarify, I find saving throws against...

    Let me clarify, I find saving throws against charm to be "not much of a challenge" because they're boring and are heavy with force. The GM decides to have an NPC with charm, and the GM decides when...
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    How do you have a baseline of doing something one...

    How do you have a baseline of doing something one way so that you can talk about doing it another way? Take cooking, for instance. If the baseline is using the oven, because that's the most...
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    Why, when discussing the ways that you can do...

    Why, when discussing the ways that you can do something in RPGs, should D&D be the baseline assumption? Because it's popular? That seems a silly assertion to make, that you have to assume the...
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    You're imagining bad play, and so it is bad. Go...

    You're imagining bad play, and so it is bad. Go back to the example I presented about the knight and the maiden. All the results of that were from the knight attempting to do things -- ie, player...
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    This reads very much like someone without...

    This reads very much like someone without experience in other play trying to suggest that other play must be more limited because, obviously, their play isn't limited at all!

    But, let's look at...
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    It wasn't ignored. I'm saying it's not a...

    It wasn't ignored. I'm saying it's not a challenge, and you're here adding support for that.

    As for why a challenge has to be binary, well... if you don't risk anything, ie, there's nothing you...
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    I'm 100% for playing with integrity. But, this...

    I'm 100% for playing with integrity. But, this thread has largely been about three things -- the proposition you posed in the the OP about the difference between two types of action declaration, if...
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    Tsk-tsk. Given your experience in the thread,...

    Tsk-tsk. Given your experience in the thread, you should know better. ;)
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    Your example is fun play. I like it, and I enjoy...

    Your example is fun play. I like it, and I enjoy when such things happen in my game. What I don't see, though, is how your example illuminates the discussion about choice not being a challenge or...
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    Dude, irony.

    Dude, irony.
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    Yes, you are confused. Finally, agreement.

    Yes, you are confused. Finally, agreement.
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    Is there a mechanic? Can you fail? Can you...

    Is there a mechanic? Can you fail? Can you succeed? There's your answer, three times over.

    If you play chess against yourself, is there a challenge? This is more akin to using your sole...
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    Dude, irony, again.

    Dude, irony, again.
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    What do you have if there's no failure, and no...

    What do you have if there's no failure, and no success, though? Not a challenge. If you can't fail, if there's no risk, then it's not a challenge. Does it have to be abject, absolute failure? No,...
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    Actually, I think save or be charmed isn't much...

    Actually, I think save or be charmed isn't much of a challenge, either. My argument has been that making a choice isn't a challenge if you can chose between all the choices. Even the unknown...
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    Dude, irony. Those comments were made about...

    Dude, irony. Those comments were made about taking things either out-of-context or imagined and then trying to pin those arguments on other posters. Like you just did to me. You cannot find...
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    I do, too. Weird, huh, that I'd agree with this...

    I do, too. Weird, huh, that I'd agree with this last bit so easily, like maybe you've missed something fundamental?
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    So, success would be maintaining your chastity...

    So, success would be maintaining your chastity and getting the girl. How pseudo-zen of you.
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    If you cannot succeed nor fail, how are you...

    If you cannot succeed nor fail, how are you challenged? You keep insisting that there are other challenges that don't include possibility of failure, but you haven't presented the case -- you just...
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    The choice is what's been presented as the...

    The choice is what's been presented as the challenge. This is the first instance of the example choice being part of a larger, interconnected story. Even there, I'm not clear on what you think the...
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    Then what does a success on this challenge look...

    Then what does a success on this challenge look like and how does it differ from a failure?

    You're confusing a choice, even a hard one, with a challenge. You can fail to overcome a challenge, or...
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    If you need me to tell you what conclusion you...

    If you need me to tell you what conclusion you reached that you then blamed on another poster's phrasing... well, I'm just gonna have to let you wonder about that.
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    I didn't have any trouble understanding him. If...

    I didn't have any trouble understanding him. If you don't add words to what he said, you can avoid the conclusion leapt to.
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    Re: challenging the character concept I was...

    Re: challenging the character concept

    I was using risk earlier, because it's a better framing for the issue. Are you risking your character. Challenging is so vague as to mean anything. Heck,...
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    Huh? Are you taking Frogreaver's meds, too? The...

    Huh? Are you taking Frogreaver's meds, too? The ask is to explore the reasoning behind the sudden change, not to refute it if doesn't meet guidelines. Heck, Aebir-Toril even says they wouldn't...
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    Yes, I agree, it is the weirdest turn. No one's...

    Yes, I agree, it is the weirdest turn. No one's mentioned calling the choice cheating, yet here you are arguing as if this was said. It's like before, when you tried to use "roll-playing" to...
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    You're missing my point, but that's partly on me...

    You're missing my point, but that's partly on me for not being consistently explicit. There are no consequences to characterization. Your characterization is not at risk. Everything you mention...
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    No, it isn't. If you're the only one that...

    No, it isn't. If you're the only one that decides, then the concept is never at risk. There has to be a loss of control for there to be risk, and you're refusing loss of control.
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    This is just asking permission, though, something...

    This is just asking permission, though, something that you've roundly rejected from the player side (ie, you've rejected that player propositions are just asking permission of the GM). So, yes,...
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    Mechanics for that risk, not that decide. ...

    Mechanics for that risk, not that decide. There's nothing in D&D that calls into question a PC's concept except indirectly. The game isn't built to do this normally, with how it frames scenes, with...
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    Sure, if that's how you think characters are...

    Sure, if that's how you think characters are tested, I suppose it is boring.

    Instead, picture the knight on a holy quest that has sworn a vow of chastity until the quest is complete. Then, a...
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    But you're assigning that role (also) to...

    But you're assigning that role (also) to characterization, which is misplaced. Mechanics are how the system resolves uncertainty, they're not constraints on characterization, unless you're putting...
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    Yes, well, I thought it odd that you started by...

    Yes, well, I thought it odd that you started by saying that you aren't focusing too much on mechanics and then talk about nothing but mechanics and how they enable your characterization and how you...
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    So, you're not too focused on the mechanics, but...

    So, you're not too focused on the mechanics, but you determine your characterization by your focus on the mechanics. All good, I guess.
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    Seems you have a good handle on it and don't need...

    Seems you have a good handle on it and don't need my advice. Enjoy it!
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    Case 1: PC in dim light, NPC in bright light --...

    Case 1: PC in dim light, NPC in bright light -- PC makes perception checks normally, NPC has disadvantage (on vision based checks).

    Case 2: PC in darkness, NPC in bright light -- PC makes...
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    1) don't confuse DCs with contested rolls --...

    1) don't confuse DCs with contested rolls -- rolling a 33 is not a Nearly Impossible challenge, even if it's pretty much a de facto one.

    2) You don't challenge a rogue with stealth challenges at...
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    Yes! Although, you're too focused on mechanics. ...

    Yes! Although, you're too focused on mechanics. Just the fact that your character is at stake in more ways that just dying in combat is the real crux. Contests are just, "might my character die in...
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    You invited it. Hard to complain about it when...

    You invited it. Hard to complain about it when you just explicitly did it.
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    So, not a flaw if it might hurt you.

    So, not a flaw if it might hurt you.
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    I think it might get your table in mutiny, but...

    I think it might get your table in mutiny, but most? Doubtful.

    As for cause and effect, well, don't look to closely at D&D, then. You might notice that you determine the effect of an attack roll...
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    Yup. You're locked into a mindset that's best...

    Yup. You're locked into a mindset that's best represented by D&D, even if you've played other games that support that same mindset (or, given some of the games on the list you presented, you've...
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    Slow down. It's not an insult. It's a statement...

    Slow down. It's not an insult. It's a statement that no progress can be made while basic assumptions are so far apart.

    And, yes, I love 5e's play loop. I'm a champion of it, when discussion...
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    So, at this point, I see that the Maxperson, ...

    So, at this point, I see that the Maxperson, FrogReaver, Satyrn nexus is doing the following:

    1) assuming D&D in their arguments, and

    2) confusing choice/authority with roleplaying (at...
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    Right, the mechanical means in most other games...

    Right, the mechanical means in most other games is that you fail a check. If you insist it must be a save against magic before you're comfortable, that seems like an overly specific exception that...
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    Right, because determining elements of the...

    Right, because determining elements of the fiction that you're playing a role in has absolutely nothing to do with playing the role. Wait, what? Nope, it totally does.

    But, this is a very nice...
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    I can understand that. I feel the same way in...

    I can understand that. I feel the same way in D&D ganes, but that's becayse the only authority I have in D&D is to make thin declarations -- the DM has authority over everything. So, when the DM...
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    Let me give you another version of this: ...

    Let me give you another version of this:



    No, I don't. You're reifying magic when it's just another mechanic through which the GM, in this case, is acting. There is no 'other character' in...
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    This misses that, in games where this method is...

    This misses that, in games where this method is used, your objections don't matter. This outcome is the truth, and the players and GM have to figure out how it can be the truth, not look for ways...
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    It means that you take the one the role, as in...

    It means that you take the one the role, as in you think about how to interact with the shared fiction as if you were that character within it.

    No, they do not, by necessity, always determine...
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    I'll leave this here again for FrogReaver, as he...

    I'll leave this here again for FrogReaver, as he seems to have missed it on his last pass.
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    We're not in disagreement at all. I said that in...

    We're not in disagreement at all. I said that in 5e players have authority to make their own thin declarations, except in some specific circumstances. While my preference wouldn't be what you...
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    Magic is just a game mechanic, though. You could...

    Magic is just a game mechanic, though. You could say "social check" or "Tuesday" or "Bob did it" with exactly as much explanatory power as to how the game works. "Magic" is just a fictional label.
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    Roleplaying is simply taking on an imaginary role...

    Roleplaying is simply taking on an imaginary role in a shared fiction. There are a number of ways of doing this, including acting, therapy, and playing games.

    A roleplaying gane is one where the...
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    Strongly disagree with this. You've defined...

    Strongly disagree with this. You've defined 'roleplaying' as 'how I prefer to play' and not in any terms outside of your preferences. Burning Wheel is very much a role-playing game and yet has...
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    See, I disagree. Without asking for specific...

    See, I disagree. Without asking for specific duties and authorities that constitute the "GM role", we can say that whatever these are they must be severable -- ie, exercising one of these...
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    Is there, maybe, a middle ground between 'I pull...

    Is there, maybe, a middle ground between 'I pull my sword" and the entirely of what you posit? Could, maybe, discussion happen about things in that middle ground? In other words, no, you can't do...
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    That is, indeed, one way it happens, and one of...

    That is, indeed, one way it happens, and one of the ways pemerton noted in his OP. There are other ways, though, like the other one in the OP, that you've dismissed as a falsehood. Given that it...
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    Yes? How does this advance a discussion about...

    Yes? How does this advance a discussion about the differences in play who chooses makes?

    A good example of a game that can go either way, look to 4e, which has a split personality depending on...
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    Yes, and the topic is about who gets to choose...

    Yes, and the topic is about who gets to choose the outcome -- the GM or the player.
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    You know, thinking on this a bit more, I'm not...

    You know, thinking on this a bit more, I'm not sure where the resolution mechanic comes in. Are you talking about the outcome on a successful resolution? I'd guess you are, but it's best to be...
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    Sounds like you have half of it down pat. Now,...

    Sounds like you have half of it down pat. Now, you need to work on grasping how the player determines the outcome of the wink rather than the GM.
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    That it's a according to preference. Firstly,...

    That it's a according to preference.

    Firstly, I agree with the way you've presented this -- so no issues at all with how you've explained the difference in approach. That said, the choice is...
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    Okay, so, your point is that players can't...

    Okay, so, your point is that players can't understand enough to make reasoned choices because the play loop is so fixed (who said this? Oh, no one, it's a strawman) that they can't ask questions and...
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    No. What turns out is that this PC is capable...

    No. What turns out is that this PC is capable enough at that level of uncertainty.

    Uncertainty does not append to the outcome of the check -- this presupposes a check -- but to the action -- is...
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    This seems... odd? You use you understanding of...

    This seems... odd? You use you understanding of the approach and fiction to set the DC to double check your understabding of the approach and fiction?

    Let's say I think that a given approach is...
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    D&D's shift is pretty sudden. There's a reason...

    D&D's shift is pretty sudden. There's a reason people have talked about the combat whoosh before. Otherwise, yes? Was there a point beside this extra qualification?
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    The same way you determine the DC? You consider...

    The same way you determine the DC? You consider the approach in regards to the fictional positioning?

    I honestly don't understand this question, given you're doing the same thing only you've...
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    This is so confused. You start by asking how I...

    This is so confused. You start by asking how I can tell if an action is uncertain, then repeat what I said I did as an example of how you do it. You even say you set DC based on approach! I have...
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    Core play loop is in chapter 1. Everything else...

    Core play loop is in chapter 1. Everything else serves the loop.

    This, though, is why I said earlier that D&D does a hard entry into combat. Combat is an extended uncertainty resolutuon mechanic...
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    Totally disagree. I consider whether the action...

    Totally disagree. I consider whether the action is possible in the fiction first, tgen, if it seems uncertain, then determine the mechanic.

    Take walking across a room with no hazards. According...
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    Simply put, it's the core play loop. There's no...

    Simply put, it's the core play loop. There's no "NPCs declare actions" there. This is because that would end up being solo play for the DM. NPC actions are part of "describe the scene" or "narrate...
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