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  1. Replies
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    Yeah, there was a suggestion by Tony Vargas (in...

    Yeah, there was a suggestion by Tony Vargas (in the other thread IIRC) about the minion/elite 'mode' thing. It could also be called 'aggressive' and 'defensive' or whatever, and there are a few...
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    If it is a FAST iteration of turns, then it is...

    If it is a FAST iteration of turns, then it is fine. That seems better to me then turning the turn sequence into pea soup, which is what 4e ended up doing.
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    LOL, well this is somewhat true. Honestly I have...

    LOL, well this is somewhat true. Honestly I have been kind of in another world the last several months, not doing a lot of work on it. I must say, the whole question of simplified hit points and...
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    You can create a 'mention', like D'karr which...

    You can create a 'mention', like D'karr which most users will get a notice about. ;)
  5. Nothing in prior 'classic' versions of D&D really...

    Nothing in prior 'classic' versions of D&D really stopped you from doing this either. There weren't explicit rules for it, generally, but it was some pretty basic trivial homebrew. I mean, plastering...
  6. So, what I'm thinking, based on these ideas would...

    So, what I'm thinking, based on these ideas would be something like this (roughly, I haven't done any math):

    Create a 'damage table' which looks something like this




    -5
    -2
    0
  7. Yeah, that was another interesting variation.

    Yeah, that was another interesting variation.
  8. Well, I still think that Gygax was perfectly...

    Well, I still think that Gygax was perfectly justified in, and he certainly hit common usage squarely, when he described hit points as a combination of things and implied that 'hit' and 'miss' are...
  9. I think the main thing to keep in mind with 4e is...

    I think the main thing to keep in mind with 4e is it is REALLY geared towards being a kind of action/adventure game with the PCs playing fairly straightforward, though potentially quite varied and...
  10. Both the Shadow and the Spectre are non-corporial...

    Both the Shadow and the Spectre are non-corporial undead which do hit point damage. So is the Groaning Spirit. In fact the ghost itself is the only one which doesn't do any damage in hit points, but...
  11. It is hard to politely say 'you are spouting...

    It is hard to politely say 'you are spouting nonsense' but that is the only way to put it! I've played D&D basically since it was invented, certainly since it was available as a game to the public in...
  12. I'm a little unclear on what your damage...

    I'm a little unclear on what your damage translation notation means....

    I'm assuming what you are really wanting to do is set up a system where damage is based on LEVEL DIFFERENCE. So what you...
  13. Meh, there's always the ignore list if one is so...

    Meh, there's always the ignore list if one is so inclined. Personally I find that there's always something people will end up saying that is annoying, and then again they'll say something interesting...
  14. I wasn't really going to touch it. No doubt I'm...

    I wasn't really going to touch it. No doubt I'm doing it wrong, and have been since 1975! hehe.
  15. I think this would all be more...

    I think this would all be more interesting/successful if utilized in an engine that would purpose built to cater to it. Shouldn't really be hard...
  16. The difference isn't so big. The level 1 goblin...

    The difference isn't so big. The level 1 goblin MIGHT survive the first 'hit', but it gets hit automatically! So it WILL DIE at the 2nd blow (assuming the first is only an at-will). The minion has a...
  17. Or, alternatively, and still well within the...

    Or, alternatively, and still well within the bounds of HP as explained by Mr. Gygax, this particular giant, while just as tough as other giants, simply lacks the connections to fate and luck needed...
  18. 'legitimately'? Show me the place where AD&D says...

    'legitimately'? Show me the place where AD&D says DMs have to roll hit dice. AD&D allows for a wide range of values for the hit points of creatures, it is that simple.


    The minion rules imply...
  19. Add in powers that don't refer to spells and...

    Add in powers that don't refer to spells and you've got a lot of what 4e monsters have, except 5e monsters are still lacking really good design in my book. Partly a problem with 5e's combat system......
  20. Actually, this is nonsense. In my old 2e campaign...

    Actually, this is nonsense. In my old 2e campaign I had a setup where the party would almost immediately run into a Hill Giant. How many hit points did this Hill Giant have? 9! Perfectly legal Hill...
  21. While this is technically true in a very narrow...

    While this is technically true in a very narrow sense, it isn't really a very honest reading of the rules of an RPG. All RPGs are open-ended affairs. They need not spell out how air or gravity or...
  22. While 'classic' D&D never really spelled this out...

    While 'classic' D&D never really spelled this out in plain words, it was also the normal expectation there. If an enemy was helpless (note this works in 4e as well) then they wouldn't get a defense,...
  23. It isn't idiotic or absurd at all, it is simply...

    It isn't idiotic or absurd at all, it is simply practical, and it makes perfectly good narrative sense. There is, in world terms, no such thing as '1 hit point'. Just like you're trying state below,...
  24. OK, so how does this not fit with 4e? I don't get...

    OK, so how does this not fit with 4e? I don't get it. Not saying I buy this as a viable way to reason about this kind of thing, but if we're going to work with it, then how does 4e not do this the...
  25. Is it? And if so, doesn't that mean that there's...

    Is it? And if so, doesn't that mean that there's a point at which you cannot say, in 1e in this case, that a fixed amount of damage still represents a specific fiction. Its unavoidable, and what...
  26. So, my 96 hit point 11th level 1e Ranger can...

    So, my 96 hit point 11th level 1e Ranger can stand around and let 20 longbow arrows pierce his body and what? He simply doesn't die from having all those arrow shafts impaling him? What sort of...
  27. ROFLMAO! I do remember that I liked the Yamato...

    ROFLMAO! I do remember that I liked the Yamato (Japanese WWII super-battleship) because the 48,000 yard range of its main battery was pretty much off the edge of most tables, even at the scale we...
  28. If I remember correctly, each of those games...

    If I remember correctly, each of those games requires 2 4x8 plywood game tables (we had something like 20 of these in our club/hobby shop). So it took up a very substantial amount of room, and there...
  29. I think Gygax, as most game designers of that...

    I think Gygax, as most game designers of that time and in some respects to this day, believed that there had to be a certain degree of authenticity. He was creating a fantasy RPG with heroes, swords,...
  30. Just to be amusing, since I have really nothing I...

    Just to be amusing, since I have really nothing I want to expand on or disagree with, I actually belonged to a club which played The Campaign for North Africa. They then went on to play a full...
  31. Not sure how you are disagreeing with me. D&D is...

    Not sure how you are disagreeing with me. D&D is NOT realistic, both Gary and I agree on that!
  32. Which game are you talking about? I mean,...

    Which game are you talking about?

    I mean, there ARE games where this is arguably the case, BRP-based games like CoC and games like Traveler (which has only 'attribute damage') would be possible...
  33. "In those days", come now, the horse potatoes are...

    "In those days", come now, the horse potatoes are dropping with great regularity here.


    I'll accept this statement, sure. That would be expected, though I'd not be surprised if other...
  34. That is one huge rabbit hole. I think it is more...

    That is one huge rabbit hole. I think it is more like a dragon's den! Who wants to march into that thing??!

    I was a wargamer before I was an RPG gamer. I don't think there is a different...
  35. I think it is also a bit silly for someone to...

    I think it is also a bit silly for someone to hold as an absolute that in classic D&D editions there is something that will never happen. DMs are pretty close to absolute authorities, and if one says...
  36. All editions and versions of D&D prior to 3e have...

    All editions and versions of D&D prior to 3e have basically the exact same combat system, with a few slight tweaks or elaborations. 2e's THAC0 produces the EXACT same numbers as 1e's combat charts...
  37. Actually, I think the entirety of D&D is a...

    Actually, I think the entirety of D&D is a refutation of this argument. A rather thorough one in fact! The game was instantly, at its initial inception, trapped by the structure of its mechanics, the...
  38. This is exactly why I used the label...

    This is exactly why I used the label 'authenticity'. There's no consideration of ACTUAL realism here, certainly not in the sense of particular incidents in the game narrative can be ascertained to be...
  39. Agreed: Also, I think, speaking as someone with...

    Agreed: Also, I think, speaking as someone with some knowledge of actual mathematical models of the sorts that might be envisaged here, that there are two very different things you can talk about.
    ...
  40. I'm far from an expert on BitD, but I would think...

    I'm far from an expert on BitD, but I would think there are 2 relevant comments here. One is that it may well have many other subsystems which provide ways to produce the things you're asking about....
  41. I would say, in systems like this, that an item...

    I would say, in systems like this, that an item which has no story impact really doesn't NEED to be regulated. The character only carries one or two small 'mementos' because that comports with the...
  42. But, if you read the posts earlier discussing the...

    But, if you read the posts earlier discussing the way BitD introduces an element into the game via its architecture and mechanics which could be seen as more realistic, but where that realism is in...
  43. Well... Even the 1e 01-30 quality BoH will...

    Well...

    Even the 1e 01-30 quality BoH will accommodate 250 pounds worth of gear of up to 30 cubic feet. While you couldn't put ridiculous stuff in that space it is enough to hold a heck of a lot...
  44. Right, it seems very weird. OTOH if you go back...

    Right, it seems very weird. OTOH if you go back to D&D ca 1976, then it isn't quite so weird. I mean, the game was mostly about nothing but hauling around a bunch of gear and combining it with some...
  45. I think its just his preference. We can argue...

    I think its just his preference. We can argue about what is possible, and what different kinds of play can and do produce, but I won't argue with anyone's preferences. I will say that BitD's mechanic...
  46. I understand why you are putting it this way, but...

    I understand why you are putting it this way, but this comes down again to the kind of 'realism' that is being discussed. If you want to have the gear that actually gets pulled out of the backpack...
  47. I will allow this qualification in terms of 4e. I...

    I will allow this qualification in terms of 4e. I think it is authentic to the genre and tone of the game. I don't think it is at all realistic. I mean, for 1000's of years, people created and...
  48. Cool. I would say that, in AD&D, it made sense to...

    Cool. I would say that, in AD&D, it made sense to have NPCs with character classes. The classes were reasonably simple, especially fighters and rogues and such, and not much would be gained by using...
  49. I would be the last to argue that you're wrong,...

    I would be the last to argue that you're wrong, in the sense that what is immersive for different players is likely different, and you've always been quite consistent and articulated your position on...
  50. Interesting... Don't you guys (I mean you,...

    Interesting... Don't you guys (I mean you, Lanefan, and there have been a couple others) often discuss things in terms of playing a game in which the PCs are NOT picked out by fate. Where in fact...
  51. Well, I would argue that it is a game, and thus...

    Well, I would argue that it is a game, and thus it is about nothing but fun! Realism could sometimes add to the fun, though I think IMHO that it would do so by way of what I am calling authenticity...
  52. Eh, does it have to remain established? I created...

    Eh, does it have to remain established? I created the original fundamental maps of the campaign world on some big sheets of graph paper in around 1976. Later I re-drew them on some hex paper (maybe a...
  53. Right, there are plenty of attestations in the...

    Right, there are plenty of attestations in the historical record of warriors discussing the breaking of swords and at least anecdotes about wanting or acquiring types of weapons which were thought to...
  54. Right, these are key points. Systems like the 1e...

    Right, these are key points. Systems like the 1e Disease system, or encounter tables and such, are not meant to produce realism. Gygax flat out says (as lowkey13 IIRC stated a couple pages back) that...
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    While I think Tony Vargas has a decent answer, I...

    While I think Tony Vargas has a decent answer, I think that 4e's elves and eladrin aren't PRECISELY like anything that came before.

    Eladrin are more like 'Fey creatures', the 'shee' of Celtic myth...
  56. Right, so in my scene framing type of process I...

    Right, so in my scene framing type of process I reveal some information which says "Boyleston has a reputation for fine swordsmiths" then of course if the PCs end up in Boyleston, guess what they...
  57. Then your use of the word 'realism' seems to have...

    Then your use of the word 'realism' seems to have no purpose. Of course you are trying to MORE CLOSELY 'mirror' or 'emulate' reality. So there is no 'false dichotomy' or whatever you are trying to...
  58. It may seem like that if you are sure what you...

    It may seem like that if you are sure what you mean when you say something, but I'm not at all sure what is meant when I read something. Max in particular seems to just assume that there is this...
  59. I think it is a case of authenticity, and also a...

    I think it is a case of authenticity, and also a case of genre expectations. Armor should work. However, 4e is interesting in being much less clear about this. Most characters, regardless of the...
  60. I disagree profoundly. As a mathematician and...

    I disagree profoundly. As a mathematician and computer scientist I can tell you that this sort of area is exactly where I am currently engaged.

    Back when I was a kid, and (as outlined in another...
  61. I would say this is a primary consideration. I...

    I would say this is a primary consideration. I have almost never seen a subsystem added to a D&D game which IMHO was actually true enough to life that it added realism to a game. It might have added...
  62. I think it is one of those issues where people...

    I think it is one of those issues where people think "I know it when I see it" but then often they haven't actually thought through what all the questions are. As you say, we can sort of guestimate...
  63. Now, see, I am a very completist kind of person...

    Now, see, I am a very completist kind of person and can easily imagine 100's, or even 1000's of similar details which could be, but never are, filled in about a community in a D&D game. Where do...
  64. I've never hinted that there cannot be a scale, I...

    I've never hinted that there cannot be a scale, I don't think it would make sense to say that a scale isn't possible, in some sense. However it is very difficult, past a very very general point to...
  65. Yup! Just as likely that we will do that in my...

    Yup! Just as likely that we will do that in my game as that you will carefully note down every single offhand assumption and bit of reasoning you went through to come up with every little detail in...
  66. I don't even see any real need to go this far....

    I don't even see any real need to go this far. When did it last rain in this spot in Lanefan's game? I would be fairly surprised if a ready answer exists to this question in most cases. How hard or...
  67. It is the posting on the 'rest of the world...

    It is the posting on the 'rest of the world forum' to inform the guy who got lost in the backwoods of Maine that finding your way is a simple procedure of going down to the next cross street and...
  68. I don't think it would be especially prone to...

    I don't think it would be especially prone to falling apart. First of all, there's no guarantee whatsoever that any indication is needed. In your example there's no reason to believe that the orcs...
  69. I certainly have come (LONG before this thread...

    I certainly have come (LONG before this thread TBH) that Max only focuses on and really has only internalized one very specific methodology of play. All discussion seems to be filtered through the...
  70. Could, can, might, all just your preference. ...

    Could, can, might, all just your preference.


    So, you are asserting that literally any implementation of this in some form, unspecified, is 'more realistic' than ignoring it? This is an absolute...
  71. I don't really comprehend why the word...

    I don't really comprehend why the word 'realistic' is a good choice for this. I would choose possibly 'self-consistent' as one adjective, but there could be others. Anyway, I don't have any specific...
  72. I utterly disagree with you, dragons would never...

    I utterly disagree with you, dragons would never be able to fly if gravity worked as it does in the real world (certainly if things fell like they do in reality). So, clearly, there's a difference....
  73. There isn't any real way to know based on what...

    There isn't any real way to know based on what you've said so far. It also depends on what we MEAN by 'realistic'. The following points spring to mind:

    First: you haven't specified what "become...
  74. Careful how you sling around that 'everyone'. I...

    Careful how you sling around that 'everyone'. I think if you were to go back through my posting history on this forum or on rpg.net, or the old WotC D&D Community forums, if they still existed, you'd...
  75. Yeah, judging from the posts between your's and...

    Yeah, judging from the posts between your's and this one, I think your kitten has died (to completely change analogies in mid-stream, but at this point who cares).

    Anyway, here's hoping Numidius...
  76. No, Max, it is NOT a 'strawman'. It is a...

    No, Max, it is NOT a 'strawman'. It is a perfectly good solid reasonable argument. In order for your case to hold, 'more realistic' has to be an actual measurable defensible objective thing. So you...
  77. See, this is what I, generally speaking, dispute....

    See, this is what I, generally speaking, dispute. My assertion is that even the most enriched of game world settings are so 'thin' in terms of detailed understanding of the processes and implications...
  78. OK, so how about this: 1. The GM is allotted a...

    OK, so how about this:

    1. The GM is allotted a fixed number of 'resources', say one per PC (could be 2, or maybe he can buy more, etc.).
    2. The GM proposes a narrative element, using a resource...
  79. Who or what regulates when that transition...

    Who or what regulates when that transition happens? Is it just "keep generating the story arc until everyone has taken a pass"?
  80. OK, so at the 'story arc' level then the players...

    OK, so at the 'story arc' level then the players would describe something they want. The GM would then be obliged to describe a path to acquiring the thing which would have some 'cost' associated...
  81. Right, this kind of procedure was discussed early...

    Right, this kind of procedure was discussed early on in 4e's life. I recall doing a few experiments with it, but never was entirely satisfied with the results. Now, with HoML, which has ONLY...
  82. In terms of the 'reversibility' of things, the...

    In terms of the 'reversibility' of things, the players have more power here than the GM in most games. While the PCs could, in principle, achieve some kind of 'wish' or something which would 'uneat'...
  83. Right, and I think that would be a pretty usable...

    Right, and I think that would be a pretty usable kind of a gauge, particularly in a scene framed game where the GM is basically going to present a new situation based on narrative, the goals of the...
  84. Suppose you can fix it by giving up the life of...

    Suppose you can fix it by giving up the life of one of the party members, permanently. Say the God of Death says "Sure, your life for theirs, I'll bring them back and you get to come with me." Is...
  85. English is reasonably maleable, so I would say...

    English is reasonably maleable, so I would say that what you are quoting there COULD mean that it can be solved another way, that is certainly left open as a possibility; however, the literal meaning...
  86. Well, the GM has, even in a fairly liberally...

    Well, the GM has, even in a fairly liberally story now sort of scene framed approach, the ability to effectively keep success out of the hands of the PCs forever. There needs to be some agreement or...
  87. What do you mean by 'success'? Let me pose an...

    What do you mean by 'success'? Let me pose an example: The PCs are the defenders of the town. Beyond the town in all directions is The Wilderness. Generations ago the wilderness was far away and...
  88. I would say that, at least speaking for my...

    I would say that, at least speaking for my practice, that success is not guaranteed. Drama is guaranteed. If you fail you do so expending your uttermost last breath going down to defeat. There was a...
  89. Right. I haven't been exposed to BW, and I can't...

    Right. I haven't been exposed to BW, and I can't say that I consciously had 13a in mind, but I was part of the 13a playtests, so I have certainly seen most of what you've quoted there. It is common...
  90. Well, the model that HoML uses is simply "when...

    Well, the model that HoML uses is simply "when you become exhausted, you refresh." This is, after all, what people effectively WANT. The text couches it as a 'long rest' (probably should abolish that...
  91. 4e is no less modular and extensible than 5e is,...

    4e is no less modular and extensible than 5e is, actually. You would simply ignore basic tenets of 4e design and work from there. For instance you could implement all the 5e classes on top of 4e's...
  92. It actually isn't all that relevant whether mass...

    It actually isn't all that relevant whether mass tackling or armed attacks would be more effective IN REALITY. All that is germane is that D&D is a game of epic fantasy in which armed warriors fight...
  93. Its funny, because WotC/Mearls is right in some...

    Its funny, because WotC/Mearls is right in some sense when they say that 5e isn't "that much different from 4e" and "borrows heavily from 4e." In some sense this really is true. Yet at the same time...
  94. This is exactly the problem. 1e has a lot of...

    This is exactly the problem. 1e has a lot of these problems though. Basically every time they attempted to make rules for adjudicating something new they created an entirely new subsystem. At best...
  95. Well, mainly, almost ALL spells are daily...

    Well, mainly, almost ALL spells are daily resources. Class features and other similar stuff often have a daily resource usage mechanic of some sort as well. Its not far off from 2e or earlier systems...
  96. Aure Entuluva!

    Aure Entuluva!
  97. That is true of the subdual damage because it is...

    That is true of the subdual damage because it is a type of morale, and PCs are not subject to morale. Another aspect of Gygaxian play, PCs, as the players 'pawns' are not subject to outside control,...
  98. Exactly, because using the kick/punch/grapple...

    Exactly, because using the kick/punch/grapple system is so unfair to PCs that it is just crazy. Honestly my guess is most DMs have just never bothered, but try it sometime, you will find out it is a...
  99. I'm just saying, the difference is more in degree...

    I'm just saying, the difference is more in degree than in character. There aren't 'types' of damage, not in that sense.
  100. No, this is a fallacy promulgated by Hollywood....

    No, this is a fallacy promulgated by Hollywood. While I agree that punches don't OFTEN kill people, they can and do cause severe damage in a LOT of cases. Why else is punching so severely frowned...
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