I didn't like Bluffside. But I didn't read it, either!

I didn't like the way this book looked, or the sepia tone city map, which wasn't all that detailed/helpful compared to Geanavue, Lankhmar, Ruins of Zhentil Keep, Freiburg, etc. All these other city settings were much more professionally done all 'round, and didn't suffer from a density of text (amateur, cheap-looking layout) that made my head hurt. I wanted to like it, but I guess I'm going to have to give "Carl, the Gray Ooze" and his Bluffside buddies a pass...

I'm still looking forward to Freeport, which hopefully will be out this Friday (the preview looked good).

Now first of all must state I did write a section of Bluffside (The Undercity and Sewers, and a couple of extra bits)...

Personally I liked the layout, may seem biased, but I liked it.. yeah the map was a bit on the small scale side, especially compared to Freeport (nice map there guys) but I'll not say your opinion was wrong at all, everyone has a personal taste and I beleive all feedback, positive or otherwise, is beneficial...

But what did you think of the content Kaptain, or did the layout put you off too much..

Thanks for your thoughts..
Andrew Troman

The layout killed me, TBH. It was so busy I couldn't concentrate on any particular thing without expending great effort. The book looked cheap and poorly designed (not necessarily written). On the plus side, that means the book is jam-packed with information. I just had a hard time locating any of it... I wanted to read it more closely, but it simply would have taken too much time. Like many consumers, I tend to make snap judgements based on first opinions. You either hook me right away, or not at all. I woud still like to go back and try to read Bluffside, but I know I probably won't, because the layout is so off-putting (to me, anyway).

As to Bluffside's content, I couldn't get enough of it read to form an opinion. The map blew it for me. I want a gorgeous (preferably full color), easy to read map. If a city doesn't have that, I lose all interest, because to me, the city is "all about the map." A good looking map excites me and my players to want to adventure in it. A bad map is a total turn off.

I have the same layout/design problem with everything I've seen so far from Thunderhead Games, Mystic Eye Games, Chaosium and a few other companies (like Nightshift). I hate the way they look--They absolutely drive me crazy from a design perspective. I haven't bought a thing from these companies and doubt I will until they get a professional graphic designer on board so I can look at them long enough to read them without wincing or straining my eyes (better artists needed too!).

The absolute worst layout and art I've seen in a d20 product is Grinning Goblin Adventures. I can't imagine anyone paying money for their stuff. P-Dabble is also horrendous in this area. Both companies products look like they were made by twelve year olds. I'm not saying that to be mean. I'm saying that because that's how bad their stuff looks to me, LOL.

The stuff I've bought from AEG, FFG, Mongoose, Atlas, WoTC, Sword & Sorcery, Gaslight Press---they look much better. Mongoose is probably the worst of the bunch, but at least I can easily read their products even if it isn't as pretty as the other companies. I would use Mongoose as a minimum yardstick for measuring graphic design and WoTC as the pinnacle (from a d20 publishing perspective).

Well like said everyone to their own..

I didn't really have to much to do with layout or the maps, but in their defence I would just say Bluffside is a very big city and not sure how they would have got it all in in a highly detailed map such as Freeports'.. There are downloads in the Vault on the Thunderhead Site with maps to download (along with close up maps of the Undercity)which will give a better view (not ideal I know but space was limited within the book itslef)

The Layout, well like I said I liked it, not just because I'm involved with the company I just liked the look of it..

Andrew

I've revised the title of this thread in fairness to THG, because I have not read Bluffside in any detail. All my criticisms have to do with the way it looks (which prevent me from wanting to read it). Maybe I'm too picky... I just want something cooler looking for my $25. Especially with so many expensive, slicker-looking things coming out right now (Freeport, CoC, Spycraft, Deities & Demigods, Geanavue, Kalamar Player's Guide, etc.) competing for my gaming dollar.

"Welcome to tehe DKUK and Kaptain Kantrip Discussion hour".. lol

Thanks for that Kaptain, very decent of you..

(Edited as my fingers seem to fat to type today, spelling is awful, or maybe its because I'm at work and trying to hide what I'm doing)

But it is packed with information and hooks, it has character. While the map is plain it is still detailed, and allows the DM to easily add their own comments and locations. I also found that it is easy to flip from locations to the NPC section to find out details.

Geanavue is a beautiful book and the map is nice but as a DM I like something I will use over and over again and a city that I am able to build my game into. Geanavue is most KoK. And the map just does not allow me to edit and add locations.

I agree that Geanavue was bland and not someplace exciting to spend a lot of time in. I had a hard time reading Geanavue because it was boring to me (not because of the layout). Their map, despite the fact that you can't write stuff in very effectively---a major pain when you want to change those stupid Kalamaran street names--was among the most beautiful I've seen and its dual-sided city/undercity design was brilliant. I would have to tweak Geanavue considerably to make it someplace I would want to spend any amount of time in as an adventurer. Its a great place if you're a cobbler or weaver, though.

I want someplace exciting but the map has to be exciting, too. I will try to drop by THG's site and grab a DL of the more detailed maps you mentioned. I will try to read Bluffside in more detail at some point, too. No promises, though!

Kaptain_Kantrip said:

I will try to read Bluffside in more detail at some point, too. No promises, though!

Click to expand...

Little warning, not so much more detailed but more close ups of the different "Cities" within Bluffside.. Apart from the Undercity which really does need a close up to see the relevant details..

Just wanted to get that straight

Reasoning of Bluffside

Hi all here are my comments:
Map:----we did the non detailed map pullout on purpose, so players would not know what or where to go and "find" some of the gems in Bluffside, not call out "Ok, we go to MD5 now what is that?". So the detailed info is on the inside, we also have the interior maps available for download for the GM in the "Vault" section for that reason.

Word quantity:---it was packed, overpacked actually, but we also did not want to cut any more than was needed, so it has a almost 1200/page word count while most items are 750's, we wanted you to get as much as you could for your money.
Future books will be lower in word count, but we have so much we still could not fit, we wanted to make it full.

Layout and design:---you are the first person to label our layout/design unprofessional, we have a layout/desgner and I personally do not agree with your comments at all, if you would be specific on your personal issues with it I will look into that, but to state we do not have a professional without knowing the design team, is not fair to my staff, and I am not thrilled by that comment.

Comments in general are great both good and bad, and some we have already taken care of on future products, but I think people will always find fault in every item (even me on Bluffside ) and I do like comments good and bad, but insulting my staff bugs me a bit.
So hopefully this helps clarify some of the info for you KK, and I look forward to specific issues on the layout/design that bugged you and will send it to my team.

Hope you take a second and third look at it and maybe we should have included more insight into our map thinking prior to release, that is something to think about!

So Hand of Evil, when will we see a review on d20reviews of Bluffy