Resisting Diplomacy

Jürgen Hubert · Jun 28, 2005

I have the following problem:

One of the PCs in my group is good at the Diplomacy skill. In fact, he is very good - he gets a +18 bonus at 7th level. So he can talk pretty much anyone into being reasonably friendly (or at least indifferent) to him.

Now, I don't have a problem with him being a master smooth-talker. But still, I'd like having some way of allowing high-level NPCs a chance to resist his eloquent ways and not just help him out every time he opens his mouth...

Has anyone faced a similar problem - and if so, what have you done with it?

diaglo · Jun 28, 2005

silence spell or dispel magic.

der_kluge · Jun 28, 2005

Well, you could always assign a DC of 35 or 40. Some people are just really hard to impress.

WinnipegDragon · Jun 28, 2005

Remember two things:

Diplomacy only works when the NPC is interested in talking.

Modifiers are the DMs friend.

Bottom line, the NPC either doesn't want to talk, or has no reason to believe what the PC is saying, which IIRC can be up to a -15 or -20 penalty.

EricNoah · Jun 28, 2005

Break it into multiple checks? Make him make a check for each step he wants to achieve -- that hostile NPC has to become unfriendly before he can become indiferent, and indifferent before he can become friendly. So he will have to at least role-play a little more discussion. Also keep in mind the rule for "rushed Diplomacy" (-10 on checks), and above all keep in mind that a "friendly" or "helpful" chaotic evil opponent is still chaotic evil -- you can't change someone's nature with a simple diplomacy check.

Actually, another thought comes to mind -- if he's talking to creatures in Common instead of their native language, maybe impose a penalty for that?

BiggusGeekus · Jun 28, 2005

Rule that the diplomacy skill can only modify the NPC reactions by one category. Subsequent attempts to modify the category even more must be done with a DC +XX modifier, with XX being whatever you feel is appropriate.

Vraille Darkfang · Jun 28, 2005

Circumstance Modifiers.

You can always let the target get a +5, 10, 15 or more bonus to his opposed check.

Also, Diplomacy ain't charm. You can't make people do something they would NOT do (Epic level DC 100+ excepted). You can't make a Paladin kill an innocent child, no matter how high the Diplomacy check (Bluffing him into thinking the child's possessed by a demon, otoh).

You can't make a greedy merchant give the party cash. A loan at a lower interest rate than normal yes. Free? No.

Diplomacy is not yes/no; save/fail. It has limits within a sliding scale. A really high diplomacy check will make the NPC feel sympathetic to the PC's plight, but that doesn't mean he'll be able to Help the PC.

painandgreed · Jun 28, 2005

Diplomacy, like Bluff, is not a Suggestion spell. Just because they like the guy doesn't mean they are required to help them. High level NPCs are going to have all sorts of pressures on them and constraints to their actions. They may like the character but they still don't know or trust the character and probably aren't going to put out that much effort for them, especially when others are around to advise against it. If you really want to give a PC a taste of their own medicine, give the high level NPC and advisor with an even higher Diplomacy skill that can cancel out anythign the PC says.

MarkAHart · Jun 28, 2005

Rich Burlew addresses this issue over on his "Giants in the Playground" web site. He has some alternate rules for using the Diplomacy skill...some good ideas there.

http://www.giantitp.com/Func0010.html

Henry · Jun 28, 2005

All right, let's see...
First of all, it needs a minute at least, or longer as the DM wishes ("..in some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase.") If someone wants to do him harm before that time, he can sit there and chat while they take action. Even if it's a quick full-round check, as the description says, they can only be persuaded so far, meaning they won't go against their core tenets even while being helpful. A merchant could still screw you if he needed the money for a good reason -- he'd just feel really bad about it. The evil warlord will not necessarily stop his plans due to honeyed words, but he will go out of his way to ensure you don't screw it up without killing you.

Also, retries are futile; as per the skill, it can be harmful, or the person has become firmly committed to their way of thinking.

If the player follows these, then I'd say lt him have his helpful NPCs -- but it doesn't mean they'll betray themselves or others, just "take risks." It gives the player the sense that all that effort he invested in portraying the smooth charmer in-game is worth it -- and even more humorous when the main villain says, "I'm sorry you keep interfering and I have to kill you this time, but I CAN make it quick and painless, at least! The least I could do for you." :lol:

Code:
DIPLOMACY (CHA)
Check: You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs. In negotiations, participants roll opposed Diplomacy checks, and the winner gains the advantage. Opposed checks also resolve situations when two advocates or diplomats plead opposite cases in a hearing before a third party.
Action: Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a –10 penalty on the check.
Try Again: Optional, but not recommended because retries usually do not work. Even if the initial Diplomacy check succeeds, the other character can be persuaded only so far, and a retry may do more harm than good. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly committed to his position, and a retry is futile.
Special: A half-elf has a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks.
If you have the Negotiator feat, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.
Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.

Code:

Attitude Means Possible Actions Hostile Will take risks to hurt you Attack, interfere, berate, flee Unfriendly Wishes you ill Mislead, gossip, avoid, watch suspiciously, insult Indifferent Doesn’t much care Socially expected interaction Friendly Wishes you well Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate Helpful Will take risks to help you Protect, back up, heal, aid

Resisting Diplomacy

Jürgen Hubert

First Post

diaglo

Adventurer

der_kluge

Adventurer

WinnipegDragon

First Post

EricNoah

Adventurer

BiggusGeekus

That's Latin for "cool"

Vraille Darkfang

First Post

painandgreed

First Post

MarkAHart

Explorer

Henry

Autoexreginated

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