Suggested Starting Level Question

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Nonlethal Force said:
Okay, not to nitpik or anything, but you really don't get the idea that the author of this thread doesn't want to discuss the specifics, do you? Perhaps the author of this post didn't know who the main combatants were and now that discovery is spoiled.

Now you are just being purposely obtuse. If he knows the name of the module, he knows that there are Drow in it. Not to nitpik or anything.

Nonlethal Force said:
To throw out a blanket statement that says increasing the number of monsters is more deadly and should be avoided focuses in on only one very narrow part of the game.

Except for the fact that it is a true statement when you talk about intelligent opponents. But, maybe your DM spoon feeds you and you are not challenged by an increase in the number of opponents.

PS. I did not say it should be avoided, I said it should be "carefully considered".

Btw, if you read the DMG, a group of 6 PCs at level x is considered to be about the same power as a group of 4 PCs at level x+1. Just FYI.


And finally, this is not even a rules question and shouldn't be on this particular board.
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
KarinsDad said:
It doesn't spoil anything.

The module never discusses the Earthquake spell. It's just something Drow should do on a fairly regular basis. There's a boatload of good high level spells Drow should do on a fairly regular basis.

While I suspected their might be some drow encountered at some point based on the title of the adventure, I certainly had no clue it was a "module of drow". That's a spoiler. It's a HUGE spoiler. Please stop.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
KarinsDad said:
Now you are just being purposely obtuse. If he knows the name of the module, he knows that there are Drow in it. Not to nitpik or anything.



Except for the fact that it is a true statement when you talk about intelligent opponents. But, maybe your DM spoon feeds you and you are not challenged by an increase in the number of opponents.

PS. I did not say it should be avoided, I said it should be "carefully considered".

Btw, if you read the DMG, a group of 6 PCs at level x is considered to be about the same power as a group of 4 PCs at level x+1. Just FYI.


And finally, this is not even a rules question and shouldn't be on this particular board.

That's pretty ironic, quoting a DMG rule (the exact rule I mention in the first post that started this thread, the whole theme of the thread, rather than "tactics for the DM plus spoilers") and then telling us it's not a rules question.
 

werk

First Post
Mistwell said:
While I suspected their might be some drow encountered at some point based on the title of the adventure, I certainly had no clue it was a "module of drow". That's a spoiler. It's a HUGE spoiler. Please stop.

Hehe, in that case, maybe your DM should be asking the question. How can the players 'contemplate' an adventure if they know nothing of what it is comprised? This is a DM question, and a decision that is usually the domain of the DM, so people are responding in kind. If you look at the module there are drow in the cover art...

Not to attack you or defend anyone else, just chiming in.

.02
 

nittanytbone

First Post
Its always easier for the DM to give the players something than to take it away. Thus, I think the best solution would be to start at a lower level (6th through 8th) and if things prove to be far too difficult, the DM can overtly or covertly level the party up a bit.

if things are too tough, the DM can give some cakewalk encounters to provide easier XP, slip in a few powerful magic items to be captured (magic items can vastly increase party power if used wisely), or even give out a level for free.
 

CrusadeDave

First Post
As for me...

I've started the module as a player three times. The four of us were experienced players, and used good tactics. We built powerful 10th level characters that meshed into a single focus. We decided to have fun with Savage Species. We got wasted.

Built a new party with humanoids focused on survivability and high level buff spells. We got wasted the second time. The third time we added a 5th player, and went in at 12th level. We were a pretty nasty group. Multiple Evil Clerics, a Troll, an awesome Psion, and a great Rogue. We got to about the same point and found ourselves in a tactical stalemate with no way to proceed without unprofitable casualties (We played an Evil party the third way through so as soon as profit margined dissappeared, we let someone else try to save the world).

Having never got through the first quarter of the module as a player, I bought the module, and am now having my players go through it. They are entering at a significantly higher level than the module expects. As a DM, I am not increasing the HD or number of creatures. I expect the CR system to even itself out pretty quickly.

I would reccommend that you enter with 6 or 7 10th level characters. Entering at level 8 or 9, will cause a few problems.

First, as you can no doubt tell, an adventure called "City of the Spider Queen" involves a fair amount of time in the UnderDark.

Long term expeditions down there (And as 8th level characters, you'd probably know this) require the ability to see in the dark, be self-supportive for long periods of time, (food, water, and sometimes air), as well as some need for flight, or enhanced climbing.

A Party of 7 Level 8 characters is going to be spending most of their initial gold on ways to simply look around, and move freely. Just goggles of night and slippers of spider climbing is a substantial investment for an underground jaunt.

Whether or not the campaign is in the Forgotten Realms, the default CR for Random encounters in the UnderDark is decidedly more deadly than any other environment. In Encounters in Faerun, no other environment on the planet has a CR ceiling over 13. The Underdark's ceiling is 20 for Random Encounters.

I'm not advocating Pit Fiends as Random Encounters, but a party of 7 Level 8 characters has enough experience that the Underdark is dangerous. Really dangerous. There's all sorts of aberrations and humanoids down there, most magically infused, and resistant to most magic, and are probably beyond their abilities to take on for extended periods of time.

At tenth level you've probably just got enough power to _think_ you can take it.

Your DM probably doesn't have to add creatures to beef up encounters or start you at a lower level of HD to challenge you. All he needs to do is play the bad guys as extremely cunning and tactical, and he can kill you over and over and over.

My DM did that to us over and over again. I'm going to do it to my players. And your DM will do it to you.

Having a party of 6 or 7 gives you some flexibility, but it also does handicap you in certain ways.

The adventure is listed as progressing characters from 10 to 18. With 7 characters, you possibly get to 17. I say 17, because eventually as you proceed, you'll fall behind XP bit by bit, and eventually there will be more and more levels lost due to character death.

The end result is that at the end of the module, your party might not be able to cast a ninth level spell, whereas the module was built with the expectation that someone might be able to and thus planned accordingly. That's not to say that you NEED to cast ninth level spells, but the the BBEGs were built to withstand ninth level spells, so why do you think your puny 8th level spells will do the trick? :)

Another way you'll be handicapped is in the expectation of a acceptable casualties. A DM with a larger party (And multiple Clerics or Druids) isn't as afraid to not pull punches when it comes to character death. So you might have a more grittier experience than with a 4 person party, where a character death is an unacceptable loss of resources; whereas in a 6 person party, the party may "press the advantage" if only one person dies, in the right situation.

Finally, remember that you'll be splitting treasure 7 ways instead of 4 ways. This means you'll have less resources for each character to survive. In higher level campaigns, this is a big deal. This would only be exacerbated by starting with level 8 characters, making your party even more undertreasured as you went along.

I say stick with level 10 characters.

As a final question, will you be running 3.5 or 3.0? I say this as I have a 3.5 campaign running and must note that the listed tactics for the villains will be severly altered by changing to 3.5. Your DM may want to just say that whatever planet wide cataclysm that changed the way magic affects denizens of the planet, didn't reach all creatures native to the underdark.

Trust me, much less headache for your DM to convert. Doesn't have to be universal to all the 3.5 changes, just certain spells. I'm sure you can guess which ones. :)
 

CrusadeDave said:
I've started the module as a player three times. The four of us were experienced players, and used good tactics. We built powerful 10th level characters that meshed into a single focus. We decided to have fun with Savage Species. We got wasted.

Built a new party with humanoids focused on survivability and high level buff spells. We got wasted the second time. The third time we added a 5th player, and went in at 12th level. We were a pretty nasty group. Multiple Evil Clerics, a Troll, an awesome Psion, and a great Rogue. We got to about the same point and found ourselves in a tactical stalemate with no way to proceed without unprofitable casualties.

Anyone else read this, but hear, "And then the next one burned down, fell over, and sank into the swamp?"
 


KarinsDad

Adventurer
Mistwell said:
That's pretty ironic, quoting a DMG rule (the exact rule I mention in the first post that started this thread, the whole theme of the thread, rather than "tactics for the DM plus spoilers") and then telling us it's not a rules question.

Except that it is a DMG guideline, not a rule.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
werk said:
Hehe, in that case, maybe your DM should be asking the question. How can the players 'contemplate' an adventure if they know nothing of what it is comprised? This is a DM question, and a decision that is usually the domain of the DM, so people are responding in kind. If you look at the module there are drow in the cover art...

No kidding.
 

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