Evaluate My Multiclass Rules

airwalkrr

Adventurer
First of all, this thread is not here to debate whether or not the core mechanics of multiclass rules need fixing. If that were the case I would have put this in the Rules forum instead. I have placed this thread here because I have personally decided that I do not like the core multiclass rules and wish to develop a house rule to make them more to my liking. The following is my latest incarnation of the rules for multiclass characters (adapted from the SRD). You might notice a few references to other house rules I use in my campaign (such as clerics receiving only one domain and gnomes having illusionist as a favored class). I would like feedback on whether or not you think this will work and suggestions for things that I might have made an oversight on or could use improving. I agree that these rules are a bit more complicated than the existing rules, but I simply do not like the existing rules and never have. I felt AD&D did a much better job handling multiclass characters overall and I am seeking to amalgamate the two. Multiclassing is easier in my system than it was in AD&D, but a bit more difficult than in 3e. As an aside I have worked out the numbers on how a two-classed character would work alongside single-classed characters. The self-correcting XP system eventually stabilizes the levels so that the two-classed character is about 2 levels behind everyone else. I haven't worked out a three-classed character, but such characters should be rare anyway. Enjoy. :)

MULTICLASS CHARACTERS
A character may add new classes as he or she progresses in level, thus becoming a multiclass character. The class abilities from a character’s different classes combine to determine a multiclass character’s overall abilities. Multiclassing improves a character’s versatility at the expense of focus.

CLASS AND LEVEL FEATURES
As a general rule, the abilities of a multiclass character are the sum of the abilities of each of the character’s classes.

Level: “Character level” is a character’s class level in his highest level class. It is used to determine when feats and ability score boosts are gained.

“Class level” is a character’s level in a particular class. For a character whose levels are all in the same class, character level and class level are the same.

Hit Points: A character gains the hit points from the class with the highest Hit Die roll at each level, adding the new hit points to the previous total. Thus a fighter/wizard who rolls a 2 for his wizard Hit Die and a 6 for his fighter Hit Die gains 6 hit points (plus his Con modifier).

Base Attack Bonus: Use the base attack bonus from the class with the highest base attack bonus class to get the character’s base attack bonus. A resulting value of +6 or higher provides the character with multiple attacks. For example, a fighter/wizard would typically use the fighter’s base attack bonus. However if the character every acquired more levels in wizard than in fighter, his wizard base attack bonus may eventually exceed his fighter base attack bonus, and therefore he would use his wizard base attack bonus.

Saving Throws: Use the base save bonus from the class with the highest base save bonus to get the character’s base save bonus.

Skills: If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)
If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.

A character gains a number of skill points at each level based on the class that grants the highest number of skill points. A character may not spend any more skill points per level from one class than that class would normally grant to a single class character unless that character is using cross-class ranks. For example, a fighter/rogue would gain 8 skill points per level, plus an additional skill points for a high intelligence, but at least 6 of those skill points per level (or 18 at 1st level) must be spent on rogue class skills or cross-class skills for a rogue (which still cost 2 skill points per rank). So a rogue/wizard who spends more than 2 skill points per level (plus the character’s Int modifier) on ranks in Spellcraft must purchase cross-class ranks to improve that skill any further.

Class Features: A multiclass character gets all the class features of all his or her classes but must also suffer the consequences of the special restrictions of all his or her classes. (Exception: A character who acquires the barbarian class does not become illiterate.)
In the special case of turning undead, both clerics and experienced paladins have the same ability. Use the higher effective turning level of the two.

In the special case of improved uncanny dodge, both experienced barbarians and experienced rogues have the same ability. Use the higher effective level of the two for purposes of determining whether or not the character can be flanked.

In the special case of obtaining a familiar, both wizards and sorcerers have the same ability. Use the higher effective caster level of the two.

Feats: A multiclass character gains feats based on character level, regardless of individual class level.

Ability Increases: A multiclass character gains ability score increases based on character level, regardless of individual class level.

Spells: The character gains spells from all of his or her spellcasting classes and keeps a separate spell list for each class. If a spell’s effect is based on the class level of the caster, the player must keep track of which class’ spell list the character is casting the spell from.

ADDING A SECOND CLASS
At any time, a character may decide to expend 1,000 experience points to pick up a new class at 1st level. These experience points are lost and cannot be restored in any manner. (A character can’t gain 1st level in the same class more than once, even if this would allow him or her to select different class features, such as a different domain for a cleric.)
Each character class has its own separate experience point total that must be tracked separately. Every character class begins at 0 experience points, reaching 2nd level in that class at 1,000 experience points, 3rd level at 3,000 experience points, and so on.

The character gains the 1st level base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points of the appropriate Hit Die type only if these are better than those of the previous class. These bonuses overlap (do not stack) with each other. For example, a wizard who becomes 1st level in the fighter class would only use the hit points rolled for the fighter class if they were higher than the wizard’s hit point roll at 1st level.

Picking up a new class is not exactly the same as starting a new character in that class. Some of the benefits a 1st-level character gains (such as four times the usual number of skill points) represent the advantage of training while the character was young and fresh, with lots of time to practice. When picking up a new class, a character does not receive the following starting benefits given to characters who begin their careers in that class.
• Maximum hit points from the first Hit Die.
• Quadruple the per-level skill points.
• Starting equipment.
• Starting gold.

ADVANCING A LEVEL
A character must declare the character classes he is working towards each time he levels up and distribute his experience points evenly between these classes. After a character has gained a level in a class, the character may decide not to pursue that class any longer, although if he returns to that class later, he will suffer and XP penalty (see below). However, if a character wishes to return to that class later, he may only do so after gaining a level in one of his other classes. For example, a wizard decides to spend 1,000 experience points to pick up a level of cleric. Thereafter he decides to level as a cleric/wizard. After gaining his 3rd level in cleric, he decides he does not wish to continue leveling as a cleric and returns to leveling as a wizard. Later on, he decides he would like to start leveling up as a cleric again, but he may not begin doing so until he reaches his next level of wizard.

When a multiclass character advances a level in a current class, he or she gets a number of the standard benefits that a character normally receives for attaining that level in that class, possible bonuses on attack rolls, Armor Class, and saving throws (depending on the class, the new level, and the character’s previous highest value in these items), possible new class features (as defined by the class), and possible new spells.

A character’s base attack bonus and base saving throw bonuses increase only if the value for the current class is greater than the value of the character’s other classes. For example a 5th-level wizard who gains a level of fighter would get the 1st-level fighter’s base Fortitude saving throw of +2 since it is higher than the 5th-level wizard’s base Fortitude saving throw of +1. However, the wizard would not gain the fighter’s base attack bonus of +1 because his base attack bonus is already +2, which is higher.

A character gains more hit points only if the Hit Die roll is higher than the character’s roll for other classes at the same level. For example, a 3rd-level fighter/4th-level rogue/4th-level wizard gains a new level of fighter and rolls a d10 for his fighter level. He only keeps the roll if it is higher than his rolls for his 4th-level in his rogue and wizard classes.

A character gains new skill points only if the current class is the highest level class that character possesses or if the current class grants more skill points than any previous classes at that level (in which case the character earns the difference of these skill points). Otherwise, that character may re-allocate a number of skill points from other skills equal to the number of skill points the current class would grant the character. For example, a 6th-level bard/5th-level sorcerer gains a new level of sorcerer. Because his bard class level was higher than his sorcerer class level, he does not gain any new skill points. However, he may re-allocate up to 2 skill points (plus his Int modifier) into sorcerer class skills (or cross-class skills). If he later gains another level of sorcerer making him a 6th-level bard/7th-level sorcerer, he would gain 2 skill points (plus his Int modifier) to spend on sorcerer class skills (or cross-class skills). If he later gains another level of bard making him a 7th-level bard/7th-level sorcerer, he would gain 4 skill points since a bard gains 4 more skill points than a sorcerer, plus he could re-allocate 2 skill points (plus his Int modifier) into bard class skills (or cross-class skills).

XP FOR MULTICLASS CHARACTERS
Developing and maintaining skills and abilities in more than one class is a demanding process. Depending on a character’s class levels and race, he or she might not take an XP penalty. However, leaving your skills dormant for a while and going back to practice them later leaves you a bit rusty, and you are put at a disadvantage for a while by an XP penalty.

For each class gained beyond the first, a character takes a -20% penalty to all XP earned for that class unless that class is a favored class (see below). If a character has several classes that are not favored, the highest of these receives no penalty, the second highest a -20% penalty, the third highest a 40% penalty and so on. If any classes are equal in levels, the character chooses which receives the penalty. Additionally, any time a character returns to leveling in a class that he had previously stopped leveling in, he takes a -20% penalty to all XP earned for that class until he has gained a new level in that class. This represents that the character must catch up on his abilities that had gone unpracticed.

Races and Multiclass XP: A favored class does not count against the character for purposes of the -20% penalty to XP. In such cases, calculate the XP penalty as if the character did not have that class. For instance, Bergwin is a 9th-level character (a 9th-level rogue/2nd-level illusionist). He takes no penalty to his XP because he has only one nonfavored class. (Illusionist is favored for gnoms.) Suppose he then adds 1st level as a fighter to his classes. He then takes a -20% penalty on future XP he earns for that class unless it becomes his highest level class (not counted his illusionist class levels).

A human’s or half-elf’s highest class level is always considered his or her favored class.
 

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Vrecknidj

Explorer
My question to you is: is this what your players want? If so, then go for it. Test the system by asking some of them to multiclass with this system, and find the bugs. If not, then don't impose it on them.

Dave
 


airwalkrr

Adventurer
Vrecknidj said:
My question to you is: is this what your players want? If so, then go for it. Test the system by asking some of them to multiclass with this system, and find the bugs. If not, then don't impose it on them.

Dave

A good DM does not always give the players what they (think they) want. If he does, then they soon stop running out of things to wish for.

But you are not really addressing the topic. I specifically stated that I do not wish to debate whether or not to use the core rules for multiclassing. I want to know what you think about this system and why, particularly where you see problems with it or have suggestions for improving it while keeping the spirit of the system intact. If you want to debate the philosophical point of whether or not a DM should design house rules based on what his players want to do, create another thread and we'll talk about it there.
 

airwalkrr

Adventurer
Infiniti2000 said:
These multiclass rules are extremely close to the gestalt rules, much more so than they are close to AD&D or normal 3e rules.

Gestalt

Ah, the chicken and the egg my friend. I would argue that the gestalt rules resemble the AD&D multiclass system, only than you do not split XP between the levels. Other than that they are practically identical.

The key difference between gestalt/AD&D and my system is choice. Under this system, players may choose to keep multiclassing or to go back to only one class at almost any time.

I should point out that I am a simulationist at heart. Sometimes I have a problem with wanting things to be too realistic. So if you notice a situation where you think my attempt at realism accomplishes relatively little compared to its level of complexity, I'd appreciate you pointing it out since I often miss such things myself.
 

Lorehead

First Post
The idea of splitting XP between classes is incompatible with the 3E XP chart. Neither is any other proportional XP penalty. If anything, it is probably less self-consistent than the RAW: once we accept that training as either a wizard or a fighter improves your survivability and combat skill, it's inconsistent for a wizard who first trains as a fighter, or a fighter who first trains as a wizard, to sometimes do so and sometimes not.

I would recommend that, if you have your heart set on AD&D-style multi-classing in 3E, you assign gestalt characters a LA. That more accurately replicates the effect of the AD&D multi-classing rules than a literal translation does.
 

irdeggman

First Post
If using monsters right out of the books with the same CR you will come across fairly large mortality rates.

Your multi-class PCs will be substantially weaker than normal (less hit points, less abilities, etc.) while the monsters are designed to work with the present system.

Personally I have discovered that the 3.5 (or 3.0 if you prefer) mechanics are intertwined so much that by making what on the surface appeas to be a minor tweak casuses large ripples in the overall game that require subsequently mor house-rules as you go.
 

airwalkrr

Adventurer
Lorehead said:

I do not understand what you mean. Under my system, your "character level" is simply your level in your highest level class, and therefore, it is that level you use to determine your xp. If you are leveling in two classes at the time, you get split the xp between the two. If you are leveling in three, you split it between the three. If only one, then that class gets all the xp.
 

airwalkrr

Adventurer
irdeggman said:
Your multi-class PCs will be substantially weaker than normal (less hit points, less abilities, etc.) while the monsters are designed to work with the present system.

Well, they may have lower hit points in SOME cases, but they would not have FEWER abilities. A Ftr7/Wiz7 cannot cast 5th level spells like the Wiz9 can, but the Ftr7/Wiz7 would fare better in a pinch than the Wiz9 when it comes to melee combat. For instance, if the party fights a rakshasa with nearly impenetrable SR, the Ftr7/Wiz7 might be a more useful party member because he can enter melee with a spear and an align weapon spell from the cleric.
 

Lorehead

First Post
airwalkrr said:
I do not understand what you mean. Under my system, your "character level" is simply your level in your highest level class, and therefore, it is that level you use to determine your xp. If you are leveling in two classes at the time, you get split the xp between the two. If you are leveling in three, you split it between the three. If only one, then that class gets all the xp.
I understand, but thank you for explaining. What I mean is that such a system does not work in 3E, because it destroys the relationship between XP earned and character power. You have implicitly based it on the lower levels of the AD&D XP charts (although, in AD&D, allowing a player to turn multi-classing on and off whenever he felt like it would have led to trouble). Since the 3E XP chart looks completely different, the system is easy to abuse.

To illustrate some of the problems that would come up under this system, let's playtest a few characters on the tabletop of the mind:

Tordek, Regdar or Krusk (who need no introduction) wants to create a front-line melee warrior. He decides that this character will start as a barbarian and advance thereafter as a fighter. He takes no multi-classing penalty.

Until he reaches 1,000 XP, he and everyone else in the party is just a first-level character. Between 1,000 and 2,000 XP, he remains at first level while the rest of the party is at second level. In 3.5, this means he gains much more XP until he catches up. Between 2,000 and 4,000 XP, he is a barbarian-fighter, and still gains XP at a far more rapid clip than the rest of the group. At 4,000 XP, he is a brb 1-ftr 2, superior to a second-level character under the RAW (such as his fellow party members). If he takes the Extra Rage feat from Complete Warrior, he won't ever need to advance as a barbarian again. He'll simply be a fighter with more HP, more skills, fast movement and rage. He will soon fall into an equilibrium where he is a constant 1,000 XP ahead of the rest of the party and gains levels at the same time.

Regdar and Tordek could additionally choose to cherry-pick a level or two in as many other classes as they want and never take an XP penalty for it. The cost of doing so, a mere 1,000 XP per class, becomes negligible at high levels. Worse, merely falling a level behind automatically grants more XP until they catch up, which means they get their gestalt levels literally for free. I do mean literally: in the long run, adding two levels of every class in the book costs nothing at all. What kind of behavior does this encourage?
 

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