removing the Big 6 - how would 3ed play?

Tequila Sunrise · Jan 30, 2008

GlassJaw said:
Good post TS.

Thanks.

GlassJaw said:
Saves and AC would definitely be my two biggest concerns. Might be a good case for giving to each class a Defense bonus. Not as sure about saves, although there are far fewer magical ways to boost saves.

I like the idea behind Defense Bonuses; it has always bugged me that PCs get better at taking hits but never get better at dodging them. My only problem with DBs is that they stack with spells that boost AC, which makes it very easy for casters to twink out their AC. That's really the reason I came up with Bonus Points, even though their benefits are hard to wrap your head around if you take the bonus type names literally. (how does my experience teach me to have tougher skin and an invisible force around my body?) So I treat the bonuses as Defense Bonuses when it comes to narration, despite their mechanical terminology.

GlassJaw · Jan 30, 2008

Tequila Sunrise said:
I like the idea behind Defense Bonuses; it has always bugged me that PCs get better at taking hits but never get better at dodging them. My only problem with DBs is that they stack with spells that boost AC, which makes it very easy for casters to twink out their AC.

Well if you use the Defenses bonuses in something like UA, the casters get a lower bonus than the tanks.

Tequila Sunrise · Jan 30, 2008

Wulf Ratbane said:
I believe 4e fixes this by advancing all saves at "Good" 1/2 rate (the same rate of advancement as spell DCs).

Yeah I've heard about that and I don't really like the idea from a narrative standpoint. But whatever, maybe ability bonuses will be more extreme in 4e.

Wulf Ratbane said:
You could use the "Good" column -2 to replicate that fix. (0,0,1,1,2,2,3,3,etc.)

The "Poor" rate in 3e is 1/3, and lacking magic items, it is expected that you will make up the difference with spells (prayer, heroism, protection from evil, etc.)

I don't think this would work as intended. All saves would have a prayer at least of passing, but saves that were formerly Good wouldn't pass as often as they should. So all of those annoying little save booster spells would become absolute must-haves, rather than neat little options. And besides, you'd be taking away one of the things that makes monks unique.

Tequila Sunrise · Jan 30, 2008

GlassJaw said:
Well if you use the Defenses bonuses in something like UA, the casters get a lower bonus than the tanks.

Good point. But now the problem is that everyone's AC is where it should be, but what about their ABs? I suppose you could boost everyone's BAB by one step. (1/2 becomes 3/4, 3/4 becomes 1, 1 becomes 5/4)

GlassJaw · Jan 30, 2008

Tequila Sunrise said:
Good point. But now the problem is that everyone's AC is where it should be, but what about their ABs? I suppose you could boost everyone's BAB by one step. (1/2 becomes 3/4, 3/4 becomes 1, 1 becomes 5/4)

Well if your goal is to make the play experience the same without the Big 6, then play Iron Heroes. That's essentially its design goal.

For me, I don't have a big problem with the game playing differently by removing the Big 6. I'm just trying to figure out how much you would have to tweak (or at least be aware of) by doing so.

I don't think I would do anything with attack bonuses because it's a lot easier to find bonuses to attack, with or without magic. In fact, I would welcome the idea of players having to use better tactics (flanking, aid another, buff spells, tripping, etc) to gain an advantage.

Geron Raveneye · Jan 30, 2008

Well, I'm not sure how helpful this is, but I've come upon a similar thought recently when starting my Lone Wolf D20 game. There is way less in magical items compared to standard D&D, and by far not as much stuff that compares to the "Big Six" you mention. Also, I'm usually a bit on the quirky side with magical items I hand out...they have to be special somehow, no generic stuff.

So basically I inserted a few house rules into the game, to keep characters from badly needing magical items at higher levels. I give them an attribute raise every 2 levels instead of every 4 (first one at 2nd level). They gain a "defense bonus" to AC equal to half their BAB rounded down MINUS the Armor Check Penalty of their current armor. Conversely, armor adds half its bonus to saves where physical threats are concerned, and shields the full bonus (e.g. dragon breath, fireballs, acid splashes, etc.) with the reasoning that more material between you and the damaging physical stuff helps you avoid some of the damage.

Didn't come up yet, but that's because the characters are at level 1-2, so most of those changes haven't really changed much in gameplay. Will have to see how it works at higher level.