Helm of Opposite Alignment, Efreeti, and You

jensun · Apr 23, 2008

Nifft said:
Maybe, but how is that relevant? Torture is not involved, and the target "enjoys his new outlook". Thoroughly.

While it may enjoy its new outlook that doesnt wipe its memory of how it got there.

And how it got there is by being forced to repeatedly wear a cursed magic item designed to rewrite your personality until you succumb to the effects.

If that isnt torture I am not sure what is.

moritheil · Apr 24, 2008

I can't help but note that comparisons to torture are made by extension according to the reasoning of the poster, whereas the rules themselves directly state that magically forced alignment change to a good alignment (sanctify the wicked) is a good act.

Again, YMMV, but there is rules support for this being good (or at the least not being a violation of good) and as with any houserule, the DM should probably explain if he or she is not going to use the standard alignment rules.

moritheil said:
I don't really see where it says under CG that the player cannot change the alignments of others. Even the Book of Exalted Deeds has exalted spells that force a conversion. If it's exalted to magically alter someone's alignment against their will, then surely doing it won't make a character less good.

(This may depend on how well you like concepts like ontological good and evil, but that is a rules source for you RAW-lovers.)

the Jester · Apr 24, 2008

Dice4Hire said:
I think if you look at 100% or maybe a bit more of modules, you see that the evil creatures in the module are a direct threat to someone innocent, and usually a whole lot of somebodys who are innocent.

That is the key point that make it ok for good characters to go and kill them and take their stuff.

They aren't always, though. What about the classic tomb that no one has plundered? The monsters don't come out, the adventurers go in. And many, many modules have evil, or even neutral, monsters that lurk in their depths and don't emerge, yet the pcs still kill them and take their stuff. Otyugh, I'm looking at you.

Heckler · Apr 24, 2008

Taluron said:
It changes the wearers alignment.
Not the wearers opinion of you.
It can change what the wearer is willing to do about his opinion of you.

This.

The efreet still doesn't like the PCs.
He won't kill the PCs.
He still will work counter to the PCs' goals.
Maybe he takes their stuff.
Think of him as a big, fiery pixie that keeps annoying the PCs.

paradox42 · Apr 24, 2008

Nifft said:
Evilhalfling said:

"I feel different. You want me to do what? hahahahaha!
No, I'm off to start a rebellion in the city of brass.
Serving mortals is obviously an artifact of the oppressive and unjust system."
*poof*

Click to expand...

If I were Chaotic Good, I'd consider this an excellent result.

Cheers, -- N

I AM Chaotic Good, and I DO consider this an excellent result. :lol:

Seriously, every alignment test I've ever taken pegs me as strongly CG.

And to my view, the free will of a being whose whole outlook is that the free will of others should be repressed and they should be forced to Do What I (or Something Else) Say(s)- is not worth defending. Such an entity should in fact be curtailed by any and all means necessary, to prevent the threat to the freedom of others. QED. I love the HoOA idea, though honestly it'd have scant chance of working on most of the monsters you'd really want to use it on.

jensun · Apr 24, 2008

moritheil said:
I can't help but note that comparisons to torture are made by extension according to the reasoning of the poster, whereas the rules themselves directly state that magically forced alignment change to a good alignment (sanctify the wicked) is a good act.

Again, YMMV, but there is rules support for this being good (or at the least not being a violation of good) and as with any houserule, the DM should probably explain if he or she is not going to use the standard alignment rules.

I am not arguing about whether or not doing it is good or evil, mainly because I find alignment debates exceptionally tedious and they never resolve.

I am however saying that the perception of the creature subject to repeated attempts to magically rewrite its personality is likely to be that it has been tortured, regardless of the fact that it likes its new alignment.

I dont see the efreeti being willing to work with the players here at all and in fact is likely to try and inconvenience, disrupt or damage them in the future.

Slife · Apr 24, 2008

All the precedents for Helms of Opposite Alignment I've seen haven't given any feedback about failed attempts to change alignment. Given that there's no description in the item of effects from failed attempts, your stretch of reasoning falls into fiat.

That said, put him into a deep, dreamless sleep (it's a first level spell, requires willing target) for the duration of the helming.

Or, to put it another way. You're a very good, kind loving person. You suddenly wake up. The last thing you remember is someone saying they're going to cure you. Before then, your memories are of being a horrific psychopath.

Do you hold a grudge?

Keep in mind, if you really don't want those memories, a decent bard can change them...

Also, here's how I expect the conversation to go:
"You fiend, you're imprisoning me! And changed my alignment!"
"Dude, chill out. You agreed. But if it bothers you that much, I'm tearing up the contract"
"Um... well... you still changed my alignment"
"You want I should change it back?"
"Well, no but..."
"So what's the problem?"

Herobizkit · Apr 24, 2008

Well, for what it's worth, I subscribe to the Shades of Grey alignment system rather than the Gygax Evil-so-I-kill-it system. People can have an Evil alignment and it's okay because that's just how they view and interact with the world - though if they are Stupid Evil, they'll die soon enough. The Capital 'E' Evil is reserved mostly for outerplanar creatures and undead where Evil IS a tangible force instead of an abstract philosophy.

So, since I'm the OP, I thought I'd clarify to say that, should this change happen, I've decided that the Efreeti will get the best of both worlds; it will change its alignment to Chaotic Good but continue to radiate Evil. Acc'd to RAW (detect evil), once the source of the evil is dissipated/destroyed, it takes 1d6 days for an Overwhelming aura (Evil Outsider, caster level 12) to fade. I may make it last longer (maybe 1d6 years) until the Efreeti truly adapts to its new lifestyle. Thoughts on this appreciated in advance.

[Edit: For some reason, I thought the Efreeti came from a [Lawful][Evil] elemental plane and had such 'tags', but I was mistaken.]

Squire James · Apr 25, 2008

How like me, to concentrate so much on the mechanical aspects of a Chaotic Good efreeti and saying hardly a word about the role-playing. Ah, well. On the other hand, the fact that there's a Chaotic Good creature around that might be able to grant 3 wishes per day probably hasn't escaped everyone's attention!

I once had a Big Bad Efreeti I was running as DM roll a 1 saving against an Eyebite back in 3.0 when it could charm a monster. Not the Helm by a long shot... he was still Lawful Evil and all.

"Look... friend. I'll pretend I didn't see you and let you go about your business, but I am NOT granting wishes and I'm NOT going with you! I'm upset enough that you just killed my other friend here, so let well enough alone, will you?"

Slife · Apr 25, 2008

Squire James said:
How like me, to concentrate so much on the mechanical aspects of a Chaotic Good efreeti and saying hardly a word about the role-playing. Ah, well. On the other hand, the fact that there's a Chaotic Good creature around that might be able to grant 3 wishes per day probably hasn't escaped everyone's attention!

Maybe converted Efreeti are the origin of the noble djinni (who also grant wishes).

Helm of Opposite Alignment, Efreeti, and You

jensun

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moritheil

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the Jester

Legend

Heckler

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paradox42

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jensun

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Slife

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Herobizkit

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Squire James

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Slife

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