MM monster stats not making any sense

Pennarin · Jul 19, 2008

I was looking at DMG 184, Monster Statistics By Role, and the rules in the PH on what bonuses you add to AC and other defenses, and comparing all of that with the Galeb Duhr Earthbreaker (MM 114) and next page's Gargoyle.

The Galeb has a high Con score, so should get more than Fortitude 23, and the Gargoyle has a high Dex so should get more AC and Reflex that 25 and 19 respectively.

Also, the Wolf (MM 264) has a low Str score, while it should have a Str score of 14 instead of 13, according to DMG 184.

What's going on?

jadrax · Jul 19, 2008

Unlike PCs, Monster Stats are not utterly constrained by any mathmatical forumulas.

Pennarin · Jul 19, 2008

So the non-official monsters, made following the DMG rules, will all have inherently superior stats?

Revinor · Jul 19, 2008

Pennarin said:
So the non-official monsters, made following the DMG rules, will all have inherently superior stats?

Bigger issue is with choosing powers properly. Anyway, I expect custom made monster to be slightly more powerful on average - what is the point of spending your precious times on producing medicore mobs, which will get dispatched by players without noticing ?

Kordeth · Jul 19, 2008

Pennarin said:
So the non-official monsters, made following the DMG rules, will all have inherently superior stats?

No. The point you're missing is that monsters do not follow the same rules PCs do, and using the PHB rules for monsters is not how you create monsters. A PC's AC, for example, is 10 + 1/2 level + Int or Dex before armor is factored in. A monster's AC is 12-16 (depending on role) + level. Period. Don't add the ability modifiers the PHB tells you to add to a player's stats to a monster's stats.

Looking at the Galeb Duhr and comparing it to the DMG, a level 8 artillery monster should have a base Fort of 20 (12 + level). It should also have an average Con of 17 (13 + 1/2 level), but the Galeb Duhr has a 19 Con. Per DMG p. 184, that means you increase its Fort Def by +1. That leaves a baseline level 8 artillery with higher-than-average Con with a Fort of 21. The GD's 23 is a smidge higher, but a +2 "racial" bonus seems in-line with a creature of living stone. It's balanced somewhat by a lower-than-average Reflex Defense.

As for the Gargoyle, the DMG table shows it should have an AC of 23 (14 + level 9) and a Ref Def of 21 assuming an Average Dex. The gargoyle "trades" 2 points of Ref for 2 of AC--again, not out of line for a living statue.

Pennarin · Jul 19, 2008

Kordeth said:
No. The point you're missing is that monsters do not follow the same rules PCs do, and using the PHB rules for monsters is not how you create monsters. A PC's AC, for example, is 10 + 1/2 level + Int or Dex before armor is factored in. A monster's AC is 12-16 (depending on role) + level. Period. Don't add the ability modifiers the PHB tells you to add to a player's stats to a monster's stats.

Sure, all is good in what you said, but the point you are missing is that I'm saying the MM monsters don't follow the "Monster Making Rules" in the DMG nor the PC ones in the PH.

Kordeth · Jul 19, 2008

Pennarin said:
Sure, all is good in what you said, but the point you are missing is that I'm saying the MM monsters don't follow the "Monster Making Rules" in the DMG nor the PC ones in the PH.

The guidelines in the DMG are just that--guidelines, not absolute 100% concrete laws. If you look at the math I posted previously, you'll see both of your examples are within 2 points of the DMG values, and in both cases an increase in one score is balanced by a deficit somewhere else.

Dalamar · Jul 19, 2008

The DMG formula for Defenses other than AC is level + 12 for Artillery, so that's 20 base for our Galeb Duhr Earthbreaker. Average higher score in a pair for an 8th level monster is 17, but our little critter has a Str 23. That's 6 points higher than the average, so we increase Fort by 3, and end up at 23, which is exactly what the Earthbreaker has.

As a 9th-level Lurker, the Gargoyle has a base AC of 23 and a Reflex of 21 and an average high stat of 17, which is exactly what its Dex is. It seems the Gargoyle has an additional +2 to AC at the cost of +2 to Reflex.

The Wolf has a Con of 14, thus the higher of a pair is indeed 13 + ½ level.

Kordeth · Jul 19, 2008

Dalamar said:
The DMG formula for Defenses other than AC is level + 12 for Artillery, so that's 20 base for our Galeb Duhr Earthbreaker. Average higher score in a pair for an 8th level monster is 17, but our little critter has a Str 23. That's 6 points higher than the average, so we increase Fort by 3, and end up at 23, which is exactly what the Earthbreaker has.

Hell, I can't believe I forgot to look at the Galeb Duhr's Strength in my calculations.

You're right of course, he's on the money.

Grazzt · Jul 19, 2008

Kordeth said:
The guidelines in the DMG are just that--guidelines, not absolute 100% concrete laws. If you look at the math I posted previously, you'll see both of your examples are within 2 points of the DMG values, and in both cases an increase in one score is balanced by a deficit somewhere else.

Yep. Correct. Guidelines. Most monsters in the MM don't follow the DMG guidelines to the letter (though I think I found one or two that did, don't recall).

The numbers just give you the baseline for AC, other defenses, attack rolls, etc. Adjust up/down from there as you see fit.

Really the only 'static' numbers on monsters that follow the "rules" are XP award and hit points.