(Rambling) Why 4e doesn't "feel" 1e...

Remathilis

Legend
This is a purely subjective idea, and I'm not sure its full formed (hence ramblings) but perhaps its something...

For S&G, I pulled out my 1e DMG or peruse the words of wisdom. As I did, I noticed something, odd. Something I haven't noticed for a long time...

1.) 1e is random, and its weighted against your PC.

Take a look at character generation. You roll 3d6 (getting a 3-18 split, heavily weighted toward the middle 10-12) for scores. By strict reading, those rolls determine your class (primes and requisites) and race (racial min/max) even your gender (min/max)! You rolled starting hp (leading to magic-users possibly having more hp than fighters!) and starting gold (possibly not even enough to afford good armor or weapons!) and magic-users rolled starting spells (via two contradictory methods, one in the PHB, the other in the DMG). If you were dice lucky (or a horrible cheat) you got the PC you wanted and he would survive the grist mill to greatness. Else, you got to try again when that less-than-stellar PC met his end.

Even beyond chargen, you faced an essentially "random" world. Random encounters, random treasure gen, even monsters had random hp. Your PC had a random chance of getting lost, and NPCs had (essentially) a random chance of liking or disliking you. And that doesn't even begin to factor the still-random elements of D&D (Attacks, Saves, etc).

All of this "randomness" puts the PC typically behind the eight-ball. Most monsters (typically) had more hp, better attacks, and more powers than any PC could possibly bring to bear. This lead to the second observation I noticed...

2.) The trade off for power is reliability.

Why does 4e's Power System Soooooo offend old-school gamers? Because it breaks the most important principal of magic and mundane power:

Magic is powerful, but unreliable. Martial power is reliable, but not terribly powerful.


There are, of course, exceptions to this axiom. Still, compare a fighter with a great sword NOT to an attack spell like burning hands, but to Sleep. Sleep ends a fight before it can begin. Sleep targets multiple foes. Sleep is a TPK in the hands of a foe. However, Sleep is a saving throw away from uselessness. No second effect, no damage nothing. Save Negates. If the creature(s) save against the spell, its done with. Compared to a fighter, who might not be able to end a fight in one round, but he can continue to try to attack every round until he hits with no penalty.

4e changes that balance by making magic more reliable, and making martial more powerful. Its better balanced, but a major shift from this principle which has been with us since the beginning.

It is my belief that these two things create the greatest shift in D&D's style from 1e - > 4e (and each version of D&D in between, the changes show up slowly). 4e bridges power and reliability. 4e encourages a "planned" world where PCs create their characters without a single die roll and allows them a variety of "balanced" choices. 4e (for the most part) removed random encounters, random hp, random treasure for a more "why am I putting X here" approach to adventure design. Lastly, 4e tries to balance the needs of the players against the needs of the DM (1e was squarely in the DM's corner, 3e sat down with the players), all of which can been seen in the evolution of editions (esp latter-day 2e and latter-day 3e) from that "1e feel"

That's my theory. Feel free to pick it apart.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

The Thayan Menace

First Post
Your Insight Serves You Well

1e is random, and its weighted against your PC.
Agreed ... and subsequent editions removed various levels of randomness.

Magic is powerful, but unreliable. Martial power is reliable, but not terribly powerful.
Spot on. As a long-time player of wizards, I prefer these old-school axioms ... and this is one of the many reasons I'm reluctant to embrace 4E.

-Samir
 

Crothian

First Post
Your points are well made, but I'm happy 4e is not 1e. I have 1e, if 4e was not different and not a new game it would have been a waste of money to get it.
 

Maniac

Explorer

Magic is powerful, but unreliable. Martial power is reliable, but not terribly powerful.

Great observation and a nice way to point out the difference between this edition and the others.

A further observation is that what the characters do has changed, in some cases dramatically. For example, Wizards no longer do the most powerful attacks. The rogue now is expected to be doing sneak attacks most of the time when in the past, you were lucky to get a few backstabs in on multiple encouters.

M.
 

Delta

First Post
I pulled out my 1e DMG...

I'm guessing you mean this mostly rhetorically.

Take a look at character generation. You roll 3d6 (getting a 3-18 split, heavily weighted toward the middle 10-12) for scores. By strict reading, those rolls determine your class (primes and requisites) and race (racial min/max) even your gender (min/max)!

No, you don't. The recommended method is 4d6-drop-lowest-order-to-taste or some other even more advantageous system (1E DMG p. 11). The most common result is 13 (see 4d6 Probability Curve by Daniel R. Collins ).

Sleep is a saving throw away from uselessness. No second effect, no damage nothing. Save Negates.

No, it doesn't. Sleep has no saving throw (1E PHB, p. 68).
 
Last edited:

Treebore

First Post
I'm guessing you mean this mostly rhetorically.



No, you don't. The recommended method is 4d6-drop-lowest-order-to-taste or some other even more advantageous system (1E DMG p. 11). The most common result is 13 (see 4d6 Probability Curve by Daniel R. Collins ).



No, it doesn't. Sleep has no saving throw (1E PHB, p. 68).


I've been studying 1E a lot lately, how many of you knew/remember/know that the random treasure charts were also intentionally weighted against spellcasters as yet another level of game balance? The charts are weighted 2 to 1 in favor of non spellcasters, and the 1E DMG even tells you this. It says something about spell caster items only being rolled about 30% of the time, and this was intentional for game balance.
 

hamishspence

Adventurer
I have 2nd ed DMG: 4d6 drop highest arrange to taste was best in the book, and had "warning, may produce superpowered characters" on it. So, saying it was the preferred method doesn't seem to fit.
 

Remathilis

Legend
No, it doesn't. Sleep has no saving throw (1E PHB, p. 68).

You are correct here. I was (I believe) thinking of basic here, or perhaps mentally mixing it with a number of other save-or-fight-ends effects. Still, the analogy is apt, if technically incorrect.
 

justanobody

Banned
Banned
I am glad to see people doing things for S&G again this day and age. It has been a while that anyone I know has done anything for them, and look at all they do for us. Help dispose of waste, and help make you happy. Kudos to you for doing this for them!

[/sillyness]
Oh, and very interesting ideas. I think I might look at these things myself to compare then more closely in the books and playing styles.
 

Starbuck_II

First Post
Sleep targets multiple foes. Sleep is a TPK in the hands of a foe. However, Sleep is a saving throw away from uselessness. No second effect, no damage nothing. Save Negates.

4e changes that balance by making magic more reliable
Sleep has no save in that edition:
In 4th, it is save partial. You are only unconscious if fail save.
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top