"Rules: Effective Character Levels and Challenge Ratings"

Anubis

First Post
After several long debates on the subject of Effective Character Levels and Challenge Ratings, I believe that I have finally found a good formula that works all the way around.

I am unable to take even a majority of the credit for this work, however, because this would not have been possible had many of us here not worked as a team. Upper_Krust was especially essential to this, having originated the system from which this derives. Although there may yet be some debate on this matter, I believe that this takes a HUGE step toward fixing all the problems surrounding ECL and CR.

Here it is, "Rules: Effective Character Levels and Challenge Ratings"! This post will be updated as necessary with additions, corrections, errata, etc. ENJOY!



REVISED ECL/CR RULES

Determining ECL:

CLASS ECL MODIFIERS

+1 ECL per Class Level*
+1/4 ECL per Integrated Class Level**

*Commoners receive +1 ECL/3 Levels. Adepts, Aristocrats, and Experts receive +1 ECL/2 Levels. Warriors receive +3 ECL/4 Levels.
**Integrated Class Levels are when a creature has, for instance, the spellcasting abilities of a Level 20 Wizard or a Level 20 Cleric, such as a Titan.

DIVINE ECL MODIFIERS

+16 ECL for Divine Rank 0
+24 ECL for Divine Rank 1
+4 ECL per Divine Rank over Divine Rank 1

HIT DICE ECL MODIFIERS

+3 ECL/4 Hit Dice (75%) for Dragons and Outsiders
+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice (50%) for Aberrations, Elementals, Fey, Giant, Humanoids, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Shapechangers, Undead (except for Skeletons and Zombies)
+1 ECL/3 Hit Dice (33%) for Animals, Beasts, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead (Skeletons and Zombies), Vermin
+1 ECL per +1 CR increase of a Template

ABILITY SCORE MODIFIERS

+0.1/-0.1 ECL per +1/-1 total modifier to ability score (i.e. an athach has Str 27, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 6, which constitutes Str +16, Dex +2, Con +10, Int -4, Wis +2, and Cha -4 for a +22 total for +2.2 ECL total for ability scores)

SPECIFIC SPECIAL ABILITIY MODIFIERS

+1/4 ECL per SA or SQ (except as noted below)***

Damage Reduction: The modifier for all damage reduction is ECL +0.25 per damage reduction "plus" and for each full 100% increase in actual damage reduction points over 5 points per "plus". Here is a table to demonstrate how this works:


Code:
 5/+1 = ECL +0.25
10/+1 = ECL +0.50
15/+1 = ECL +0.75

10/+2 = ECL +0.50
20/+2 = ECL +0.75
30/+2 = ECL +1.00

15/+3 = ECL +0.75
30/+3 = ECL +1.00
45/+3 = ECL +1.25

20/+4 = ECL +1.00
40/+4 = ECL +1.25
60/+4 = ECL +1.50

25/+5 = ECL +1.25
50/+5 = ECL +1.50
75/+5 = ECL +1.75


+1/2 ECL per 5 points of hardness (includes damage reduction of X/-)
+1/2 ECL per 5 points of Spell Resistance over 10
+1/2 ECL per Energy Resistance
+1 ECL per Energy Immunity
+1/2 ECL per 5 points of Fast Healing or Regeneration

+1 ECL if creature has Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate 1st-3rd level spells that are usable at will, +2 ECL if creature has Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate 4th-6th level spells that are usable at will, +3 ECL if creature has Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate 7th-9th level spells that are usable at will, +4 ECL if creature has Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate spells of 10th level and above that are usable at will (half these values if usable only a certain number of times per day, quarter these values if usable once per day or less); this becomes +1/2 ECL total if the creature's Hit Dice ECL Modifier is equal to or greater than the level needed for a wizard or cleric to cast the spells duplicated by the spell-like ability (half that if usable a certain number of times per day, quarter that if usable once per day or less); apply only the highest modifier as this bonus does not stack for multiple spell-like abilities

+1 ECL per 20 Spellcraft DC of Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate Epic Spells that are usable at will (half that if usable a certain number of times per day, quarter that if usable once per day or less)
+2 ECL for Blindsight
+1 ECL per appendage over two
+1/2 ECL if the creature can summon other creatures, +1 ECL if the creature can summon other creatures of its CR, +2 if the creature can summon other creatures of a higher CR; apply this modifier for each time per day the creature can summon

***Some SAs and SQs not mentioned here are still worth more than ECL +1/4. Modifiers for more powerful abilities are subject to the DM's discretion based on relative power.



For the purposes of this system, ECL equals CR in all cases. For CRs over 20, use the following table, borrowed from UK's article in Asgard 6:


Code:
    ECL --- CR     
   1-20 --- +1/Level
  21-40 --- +1/2 Levels
  41-80 --- +1/4 Levels
 81-160 --- +1/8 Levels
161-320 --- +1/16 Levels


This format can be continued indefinitely as ECL and CR increases.
 
Last edited:

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reapersaurus

First Post
I think before anyone wades into this thread, you shiould have them read the LONG thread that came before this.
Link?

Personally, I don't think what you and UK are proposing can even remotely be done - a universal, all-encompassing, detailed system for properly estimating threats and power levels.

There are too many variables, as proven by your guys' inability to nail it down accurately enough even after months of combined work.
 

CRGreathouse

Community Supporter
reapersaurus said:
Personally, I don't think what you and UK are proposing can even remotely be done - a universal, all-encompassing, detailed system for properly estimating threats and power levels.

There are too many variables, as proven by your guys' inability to nail it down accurately enough even after months of combined work.

What you've said is, I think, undeniably true.

I don't think this is what they're after, though - I think they're trying to get a formula that will give a good place to start.

I'm not sure how close they are - the abilities above aren't even internally consistant. (For example: cast Greater SR 1/day: ECL +1; equivilent SR granted: ECL +2.5.)
 

Personally, I prefer UK's approach, but to throw somthing else out to think about, I think both systems have a flaw in this section:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ECL --- CR
1-20 --- +1/Level

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't believe a single humanoid of any class is the same level of challenge as a monster whose CR is equal to that class level.

For example, I don't think a 7th level fighter (or any class) is as challenging a combat as a Hill giant (CR7), whether that fighter is equipped as a PC or NPC. I'm not picking out Giants as especially dangerous, just that character levels don't match up to monster CR's when compared one on one.

The monster's CR is balanced (theoretically) to present a challenge for a team of PCs of that level. A human PC of a given class level is not. It's just a character of a certain level. The DMG says NPCs should be given a CR equal to their level, but this is a fudge and not a satisfactory one for me.
I've placed many NPCs (including teams) up against my players, and they usually have a far easier time of it than when they face monsters of a given CR.

This shouldn't be surprising, since one character of (say) level 4 facing a team of characters of level 4 is obviously outmatched. You might think that since 1 character faces 4 of equal level, the encounter will use up 20-25% of resources. In practice, this is hardly ever the case (in my experience anyway). In simple terms, the defenders can take 4x as much damage but they also have 4x the attacks - you could say this is more like a 16x difference in power level. It's probably not quite that great an advantage, but it's more than the simple 4:1 that CR=ECL would have us accept.

For the sake of comparison, I used a spreadsheet to compare the effectiveness of 1 NPC fighter facing 4 fighters of the same stats, to work out what level difference would produce a 20% use of resources by the team.

A 20th level fighter came out as a suitable challenge for a 16th-17th level, and a 12th level fighter challenged a 9th level team.

Obviously, there are a couple of problems here - first, PC teams aren't all fighters - but the mix of characters is probably stronger than if they were all a single class.
So if we assume that characters of equal level are roughly equal regardless of class (they present different challenges, but the whole idea of D&D assumes they are balanced), this doesn't present a problem.
The comparison also assumed both sides were equipped equally - NPCs are much weaker than PCs due to their poorer equipment, skewing the numbers even more in the PCs favour.

This point of this long diatribe - to argue for some other comparison of ECL to CR at the sub-20 level. If CR = ECL x2/3 or x.8 or something like that (up to ECL 20, the progression continuing as listed in the original table), this might even make the conversion of dragons and the like easier.
A Great Wyrm White Dragon under earlier ECL proposals worked out as CR25+ if I remember correctly. i think the official figure of 20 may not be correct but is definitely closer the mark, and with a system like this it'll be easier to get that.
You have a bit more leeway for modifiers at the lower levels.

Something to think about, I hope.
 


Examples?

Hi Anubis mate! :)

I don't agree with a lot of your above ideas.

Also you are noticeably devoid of examples. I would be interested in seeing:

Pit Fiend
Planetar
Great Wyrm Red Dragon
Solar

...and the Hecatonchiere as well.
 
Last edited:

Hey reapersaurus! :)

reapersaurus said:
I think before anyone wades into this thread, you shiould have them read the LONG thread that came before this.
Link?

I think that may only serve to confuse them. The contents of that thread (and this) are more akin to brainstorming than an actual treatise on the matter.

Someone wanting to play 3rd Ed. will go look at the core rulebooks; not the brainstorming that led to the core rulebooks.

reapersaurus said:
Personally, I don't think what you and UK are proposing can even remotely be done - a universal, all-encompassing, detailed system for properly estimating threats and power levels.

While CRs are ever ambiguous I think (or rather I know) a system can be devised that will make assigning CRs easy; with a negligable margin for error - which is the crux of challenge ratings.

reapersaurus said:
There are too many variables, as proven by your guys' inability to nail it down accurately enough even after months of combined work.

I believe I have nailed it down and I can't speak for the others but I haven't been working on this for months.
 


Anubis

First Post
Re: Examples?

demiurgeastaroth said:

Personally, I prefer UK's approach, but to throw somthing else out to think about, I think both systems have a flaw in this section:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ECL --- CR
1-20 --- +1/Level

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't believe a single humanoid of any class is the same level of challenge as a monster whose CR is equal to that class level.

For example, I don't think a 7th level fighter (or any class) is as challenging a combat as a Hill giant (CR7), whether that fighter is equipped as a PC or NPC. I'm not picking out Giants as especially dangerous, just that character levels don't match up to monster CR's when compared one on one.

The monster's CR is balanced (theoretically) to present a challenge for a team of PCs of that level. A human PC of a given class level is not. It's just a character of a certain level. The DMG says NPCs should be given a CR equal to their level, but this is a fudge and not a satisfactory one for me.
I've placed many NPCs (including teams) up against my players, and they usually have a far easier time of it than when they face monsters of a given CR.

This shouldn't be surprising, since one character of (say) level 4 facing a team of characters of level 4 is obviously outmatched. You might think that since 1 character faces 4 of equal level, the encounter will use up 20-25% of resources. In practice, this is hardly ever the case (in my experience anyway). In simple terms, the defenders can take 4x as much damage but they also have 4x the attacks - you could say this is more like a 16x difference in power level. It's probably not quite that great an advantage, but it's more than the simple 4:1 that CR=ECL would have us accept.

For the sake of comparison, I used a spreadsheet to compare the effectiveness of 1 NPC fighter facing 4 fighters of the same stats, to work out what level difference would produce a 20% use of resources by the team.

A 20th level fighter came out as a suitable challenge for a 16th-17th level, and a 12th level fighter challenged a 9th level team.

Obviously, there are a couple of problems here - first, PC teams aren't all fighters - but the mix of characters is probably stronger than if they were all a single class.
So if we assume that characters of equal level are roughly equal regardless of class (they present different challenges, but the whole idea of D&D assumes they are balanced), this doesn't present a problem.
The comparison also assumed both sides were equipped equally - NPCs are much weaker than PCs due to their poorer equipment, skewing the numbers even more in the PCs favour.

This point of this long diatribe - to argue for some other comparison of ECL to CR at the sub-20 level. If CR = ECL x2/3 or x.8 or something like that (up to ECL 20, the progression continuing as listed in the original table), this might even make the conversion of dragons and the like easier.
A Great Wyrm White Dragon under earlier ECL proposals worked out as CR25+ if I remember correctly. i think the official figure of 20 may not be correct but is definitely closer the mark, and with a system like this it'll be easier to get that.
You have a bit more leeway for modifiers at the lower levels.

Something to think about, I hope.

You are forgetting about the DM factor. If a DM is at all competent, the CRs and ECLs work out just fine as equal. Basically, the normal system assumes that a creature of a specific CR is a 20% challenge for four characters of the same level. With a good DM, this is true.

What UK and I have done is basically taken it a step further and gone with the logical conclusion that if a creature of a specific CR is a 20% challenge for four characters of the same level, then CR and ECL MUST be the same.

xanatos said:

Shouldn't you link the base SR (10) to the CR?

Bye
Max

No. An SR of 10 is bascially worthless, as even a Level 1 Wizard can break through it 55% of the time. It is not worth consideration until SR 15. I think UK and I could probably agree on this one.

Upper_Krust said:

Hi Anubis mate! :)

I don't agree with a lot of your above ideas.

You don't? Funny, more than half of them are the same as your proposals! (The main things that are nearly identical are the ECLs for Levels, Templates, Hit Dice, and most SAs and SQs, and to a certain extent, Divinity as well.)

Upper_Krust said:

Also you are noticeably devoid of examples. I would be interested in seeing:

Pit Fiend
Planetar
Great Wyrm Red Dragon
Solar

...and the Hecatonchiere as well.

Those specific ones, except for the dragon, do indeed come out overestimated. Your system, however, doesn't do any better. I did the calculations, and your system overestimates those specific examples as much, if not more, than mine does!

For examples, my Pit Fiend works out to ECL +19 (which is very close to being correct) . . . Yours works out to ECL +23!

As such, I think both systems need minor tweaking, although I am currently a bit closer than you are. The above system works for roughly 80% of the monsters in the Monster Manual, everything except for Celestials, Devils, and Demons. Heck, even the dragons work out perfectly!

Anyway, my tweaking and testing is still coming along nicely. How are your tests going?
 

Re: Re: Examples?

Hi Anubis mate! :)

Anubis said:
Those specific ones, except for the dragon, do indeed come out overestimated.

Well if you know your system is overestimating then how can you advocate it!?

Anubis said:
Your system, however, doesn't do any better. I did the calculations, and your system overestimates those specific examples as much, if not more, than mine does!

How can you know that when I haven't posted my system yet?

Anubis said:
For examples, my Pit Fiend works out to ECL +19 (which is very close to being correct) . . . Yours works out to ECL +23!

I actually worked it out at CR20.

Anubis said:
As such, I think both systems need minor tweaking, although I am currently a bit closer than you are.

:D

Anubis said:
The above system works for roughly 80% of the monsters in the Monster Manual, everything except for Celestials, Devils, and Demons. Heck, even the dragons work out perfectly!

Anything less than 100% is broken.

Anubis said:
Anyway, my tweaking and testing is still coming along nicely. How are your tests going?

Almost finished. Its looking pretty much perfect.
 

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