Where does this idea come from? (Forked Thread: The still "complete" list)

Lanefan · Jul 9, 2009

Mouseferatu said:
There's a vast difference between "book bloat" and "setting bloat." Multiple settings compete with each other; multiple sourcebooks do not (or at least do so to a much lesser degree.)

Settings bloat is mostly fluff and can be ignored by those not using said fluff. Books, on the other hand, are usually more crunchy, and thus cannot be so easily ignored by those looking for a "complete" game or ruleset.

That said, bloat is bloat.

How do you figure? Based on what model? How many books "should" a 5-year run have?

In other words, I'm not seeing anything in this other than some people have a "gut feeling" that there are too many books. Now, that's certainly an opinion people are welcome to, but it doesn't do much in the way of convincing me why they feel that way, or suggest to me that there's any hard reasoning behind it.

Assuming the books are all core, as 4e comes right out and suggests, then I'd prefer there be time to fully digest book A (of whatever current edition/game I might be playing) and assimilate it into my game before being presented with book B. (I'm unusual in that for me that process could take years; I'm trying to be a bit more general here) The original 4e model of having a new wave of three core books released each year didn't seem too bad...provided that's all there was. But we're only just now hitting a year and there's already...how many?

Lanefan

wedgeski · Jul 9, 2009

Ainamacar said:
These points aren't exhaustive, and they aren't immune to nit-picking, but I think the basic thrust is sound. Putting them together, it doesn't surprise me that the "too much too quickly" perspective is oft repeated.

All true, and a very good post.

I'm in Mouse's camp, really. There *are* a lot of books for 4E, but nothing that has struck me as breaking the pattern of the last few years.

I've had friends who dabble in gaming come over and express a little surprise at how quickly my 4E shelf has filled up, but I attribute that mainly to the fact that I'm a bigger fan of this edition than the last, and I DM a weekly 4E game which I never managed to do for 3E, thus my purchasing habits have gone up a gear accordingly.

I have at least one player who likes the opportunity to weigh every option he has when creating characters, and he was pretty glum that he couldn't justify buying all of the splats. He perked right up when I told him that the free trial of the CB had everything up to 3rd level, which would at least allow him to get a feel for the different classes.

Baz King · Jul 9, 2009

For me its all about utility. I can't play enough to keep up with my purchases. I think I'm a good customer of WotC, I buy everything in print, I have a full sub to DDI and I grab all the minis and tiles I can. Trouble is, I simply don't get to use them all. I run a weekly game, never miss one, and we get about 3 hours of proper game in. I'd like to play more but you know how modern life is. We've been playing since launch and our group is hitting 10th level now. That's a common experience I think? Now, the modules on my shelf go up to level 27 and deep in my heart I know that I'm 2 years from finishing the run. That's faintly depressing! I'll never get to play all the delves, or Scales of War, or the stuff in Dungeon or the 3pp stuff that looks so good.
Worse, given how hard it is to actually die as a PC, my campaign is very unlikely to ever see the races and classes released since PHB I.

Now, I shouldn't complain. Choice is good, and I need to be more rigourous in exercising that choice. Tellingly, I don't think I'll buy Divine Power. I haven't finished reading Martial Power yet! As much as I'd like to have it all, I know I can never use it all. So, I will buy less. And that pains me.

Or I could not run campaigns, and do one shots and short runs. Not my style.

Its a conundrum, both for me and I think for WotC too.

(Oh, I'd have had exactly the same issue with 3.x too, so its not about the edition)

vagabundo · Jul 9, 2009

To be honest I'm finding it hard to keep pace with the 4e releases, lucky DDI keeps things in check. An electronic, searchable database is a Godsend.

But my TT game moves at a snails pace. To be honest I could probably get by with just the core books for my own group, but I like being in with all the stuff that is out there and I am enjoying the articles. I also like feeling like I am contributing to keeping DND alive, odd that, but there it is.

I do feel swamped with the releases, but, if I had kept pace with the 3e releases I would have been swamped too. As it was in the eight or so years I played 3e I only bought the core books and the FRCS - I did re-buy the core books when 3.5 came out.

I already have more 4e books then 3e ones, but I do like this edition more.

Maggan · Jul 9, 2009

Jack99 said:
5 year run? Compared to what? 1st edition? I thought it had been established that things were released at the same pace as in 3.x?

Once a long time ago, I counted the releases of each edition. AD&D and D&D3.x had comparable paces of release (but D&D3.x had thicker books, whereas AD&D had a lot more slender modules).

AD&D2nd blew both out of the water when it came to sheer numbers. It would have taken D&D3.x about 20 years at the pace they adopted to catch up with AD&D2nd edition.

Of course, second edition had all these campaign settings, but a lot of generic books were released as well. A lot of books.

Those with the search option can probably find my original posts about this.

Cheers!

/M

Vanuslux · Jul 9, 2009

My first impulse was that it has to do with the rapid fire rate at which we're recieving new material through DDI on top of the fact that virtually nothing that comes out is easily dismissed. It feels like a constant bombardment of content without any lull in which to digest the material and assimilate it. While I'm loathe to complain about getting "too much" good stuff, the pace of it all is taking some getting used to.

ExploderWizard · Jul 9, 2009

I don't feel the release schedule is too large. In a way, the increased speed of book releases helps the DDI. The subscription model brings in steady revenue and thats what is best for profits. An individual book loaded with pages of powers might not be a huge seller, but if the contents were available online and integrated into character building software (which it is) then the online deal looks a lot more attractive to the consumer.

ggroy · Jul 9, 2009

Ainamacar said:
Third, "everything is core" has been intrepreted by some people to mean that new crunch is "less optional" than in previous editions. Even if this is an unconscious response I think it tends to enhance the completist urge among consumers taken as a whole.

WotC has probably learned their lesson very well, from the 3.5E era of proliferating splatbooks and the TSR 2E AD&D era of proliferating settings.

At times I wonder how well the 3E/3.5E splatbooks actually sold. I remember seeing several 3.5E Eberron and Forgotten Realms splatbooks in the discount section of a few "big box" bookstores in town. It wasn't just one or two copies, but stacks of 8 or 9 copies of each splatbook for $6 a pop.

From this, I wonder how many splatbooks actually did more than one printing. Of the 3.5E splatbooks I've picked up over the last year from various discount and clearance sales at FLGS, big box bookstores, and online, the only ones in my collection which indidicated they had more than one printing are:

- Complete Arcane
- Complete Adventurer (3rd printing)
- Eberron Campaign Setting (3rd printing)
- Faiths and Pantheons
- Player's Handbook 2 (3rd printing)
- Book of Exalted Deeds
- Monster Manual 3

I used this method for determining printings:

Editions and Printings, How to Tell the Difference: a guide for book collectors

Though this method does not tell you how large the actual print runs were. For example, underprinting something could drive the publisher to do another print run or two, if a title sold out very quickly.

Ainamacar said:
Fourth, and related to the last point, is the business model underlying 4e. Roughly, maximize the number of potential buyers for every book by reducing setting-specific material and emphasizing "generic" material whenever possible. Whether this is a good choice (financially or from the hobbyist's perspective) has been discussed pretty thoroughly in other threads, but it can enhance the "too much too quickly" perspective. In short, even if the total amount of material produced were precisely the same as in previous editions, every consumer that isn't a completist already is being marketed more material than before. From the perspective of the individual consumer that can feel like more material has been produced, and it potentially influences the perspectives of a large percentage of the total D&D audience.

This perception of "everything is core" of 4E generic content causing an enhancment of the "too much too quickly" perspective, could backfire eventually on WotC if the content quality of the splatbooks nosedives in later years to being mediocre or outright crap. If at least the content quality of future splatbooks is on par or even superior to the earlier released 4E books, they can probably prolong the 4E splatbook treadmill somewhat longer until the 4E product line inevitably runs out of steam. All these things compounded together may possibly even shorten the market lifetime of 4E D&D, when it comes to selling paper books in bookstores and FLGS.

The big unknown variable in the 4E product line, is the future viability of DDI. Even if WotC ends up releasing less 4E splatbooks in the later years, the DDI service may possibly still be viable. Subscription fees coming in every month is something they have better control of, than the vagarities of the book business (ie. printing, shipping, dealing with returns, etc ...). If WotC is keeping to their commitment of online exclusive content which may not show up in any paper splatbooks, this may possibly be a another selling point for DDI.

I wouldn't be surprised if DDI ends up becoming the dominant cash cow for 4E D&D. With the D&D brand being licensed for possible future video games and MMORPGs, they might even be able to cross market it with DDI. For example, every D&D licensed video game or MMORPG account can come with a one month free trial subscription to DDI.

Keia · Jul 9, 2009

I like to think that the philosophy of 4e is more a horizontal spread than a vertical speed, with horizontal being more options, and vertical being the power level of a particular item.

3e and 3.5e seemed to suffer in that in order to continue to put out material, the latest material had to be better than (or more powerful than) the last. So far, purely from a GM and player perspective (not an analyst or anything), it seems that there is very little, if any, power increase, and all increases have been in the more options vein.

If the perspective is to give more options . . . then the number of books seems reasonable, and I know that everyone in my group looks forward to the next months releases with interest. I definitely don't hear the "Ah heck no, not another 4e book ?!?" from my players or my GMs

.

I like that there's someone new every month, and that everything is growing (options wise).

The Ghost · Jul 9, 2009

ggroy said:
What probably counts in the end, is how many D&D books are being sold in spite of what the collective market thinks. If the perception is drastically affecting book sales, then WotC will change accordingly and not produce as many books. If the perception isn't doing anything sales wise, then WotC will just keep on doing the same thing until the 4E line runs out of steam eventually.

Oh, I agree very much with what your saying. What I am saying is that many of us look at the end of 3E and compare that to what is currently going on with 4E. A lot of people thought the last few 3E books were pretty bad and have concluded that it was the rate of release that caused the existence of bad books and that bad books led to the creation of 4E. They then look at the rate of release for 4E and conclude that 4E must follow 3E's path. I don't know whether or not that will actually happen but I do know many people who believe it will.