Two-weapon Defense and Shield?

Ilja · Aug 24, 2009

Does the feat Two-weapon Defense (+1 AC when using a weapon in the off-hand) work with a shield? A shield can be used as a weapon, and the other two-weapon feats work with them. However, the +1 AC is a shield bonus - would it stack with the shield bonus of the shield? Or rather, should you think of it as increased control of the off-hand, improving the ability to parry? In that case, it would make sense to make it stack.

My guess would be that they don't stack, but thought I might ask anyway, as I'm going to play a "dual-wielder" sword and board guy soon.

StreamOfTheSky · Aug 24, 2009

By RAW, it doesn't stack.

That said, TWD is a really crappy feat, so you could ask your DM for a houserule. Or save yourself a feat. Seriously, it sucks. (In my houserules, it would not stack with a shield, but you'd only have to take TWD once. After that, your shield bonus = your offhand attacks, and thus naturally increases with ITWF and GTWF, instead of needing to take improved and greater TWD)

Theroc · Aug 24, 2009

Stringburka said:
Does the feat Two-weapon Defense (+1 AC when using a weapon in the off-hand) work with a shield? A shield can be used as a weapon, and the other two-weapon feats work with them. However, the +1 AC is a shield bonus - would it stack with the shield bonus of the shield? Or rather, should you think of it as increased control of the off-hand, improving the ability to parry? In that case, it would make sense to make it stack.

My guess would be that they don't stack, but thought I might ask anyway, as I'm going to play a "dual-wielder" sword and board guy soon.

Quoting from the D20SRD
"
Shield Bonus

A shield bonus improves Armor Class and is granted by a shield or by a spell or magic effect that mimics a shield. Shield bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other shield bonuses. A magic shield typically grants an enhancement bonus to the shield's shield bonus, which has the effect of increasing the shield's overall bonus to AC. A shield bonus granted by a spell or magic item typically takes the form of an invisible, tangible field of force that protects the recipient. A shield bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks."

So no, they will not stack. However, in earlier levels, or if you simply choose NOT to take Improved Shield bash, using both as weapons would allow you to keep that +1 bonus even when you lose the normal shield bonus(meaning for a light shield, you'd have no real 'penalty' for using it.)

At least, that's how I see it, though I may be wrong.

StreamOfTheSky · Aug 24, 2009

Nah, that's right. I still don't think it's worth a feat to get a +1 AC when you full attack (and lose your regular shield's AC bonus) as opposed to spending a feat to make that extra attack at much lower penalty AND retain a +2 or higher AC bonus.

Darklone · Aug 24, 2009

Right, thats why we use the same houserule... e.g. TWD improves to +2 or +3 as soon as you get the better twf feats.

IMX that made the feat really worthwhile even if most TWF dudes are horribly feat starved... (especially if Two Weapon Rend and Pounce from PHB2 are allowed... and Dual Strike is another must have...)

Sharkon · Aug 24, 2009

Unfortunately no they do not stuck.Imagine a fighter having greater two weapon defense (+3 shield bonus),playing in combat expertise (the bonus doubles , +6) , having a +2 buckler which is relatively cheap and having a shield spell cast upon him... This would be a total of +14 AC. I think you understand what i try to say

Elethiomel · Aug 24, 2009

Sharkon said:
Unfortunately no they do not stuck.Imagine a fighter having greater two weapon defense (+3 shield bonus),playing in combat expertise (the bonus doubles , +6) , having a +2 buckler which is relatively cheap and having a shield spell cast upon him... This would be a total of +14 AC. I think you understand what i try to say

A buckler gives a shield bonus. A shield bonus does not stack with another shield bonus, because of the general rule in DnD 3.5 that bonuses with the same name do not stack.
The shield spell gives a shield bonus. For the same reason that a buckler and two-weapon defence does not stack, the shield spell does not stack with either. In addition, the shield spell is self-only so a pure fighter can't have it (save Rings of Spell Storing).

Theroc · Aug 25, 2009

Elethiomel said:
A buckler gives a shield bonus. A shield bonus does not stack with another shield bonus, because of the general rule in DnD 3.5 that bonuses with the same name do not stack.
The shield spell gives a shield bonus. For the same reason that a buckler and two-weapon defence does not stack, the shield spell does not stack with either. In addition, the shield spell is self-only so a pure fighter can't have it (save Rings of Spell Storing).

That's why Sharkon said they don't stack.