Spellcasting Changes

Sylrae · Nov 14, 2009

I saw someone propose Caster Level Checks to cast spells (as a check to some of the crazier ones).

So I'm going to ask, does anyone think this would be a good Idea?

I proposed a change a while back, and repeated it in a recent thread: Caster Level Check replacing ASF, With Caster Level Checks built in.

You could take it a step farther. Instead of metamagic being feats all the time, you could have it change the check DCs, and then the feats wouldnt all be used up (Often you regret taking them IME). It would be possible, right?

Finally:

Counter Spelling:

Truly this is a bit inspired by my days of MtG. 2 Blue = Counter. Many variations exist.

Right now you can only counter spell if you are already waiting for a spell to be cast. Because of this, I have actually never seen counter spell be used as a counter. I've seen people use silence to stoop a mage in his tracks, but never seen anyone actually use counter spell.

Spellcasting provokes AoOs.

What if you could counterspell as an AoO? I could see it being at least a viable choice then.

Honestly I'd propose further changes to counterspell, from my own thoughts, but maybe other people feel differently, so I'm open to input.

Changes:
To Counterspell, you no longer need to have the correct spell. You still need to Identify the spell, and then you need to make a dispel check instead of casting the correct spell.

If the altered Counterspell needs limits any or all of the following could be used:
1: Counterspelling can be counterspelled.
2: While Counterspelling is an AoO, You cannot cast full round spells in a round you counterspelled.
3: Counterspelling can only be done if you can cast the same level spells as the one youre trying to counter, and eats up a spell slot of that level (of higher, at caster's discretion).

Now, can we make any improvement using any of these ideas?

Kerrick · Nov 14, 2009

Sylrae said:
I saw someone propose Caster Level Checks to cast spells (as a check to some of the crazier ones).

So I'm going to ask, does anyone think this would be a good Idea?

More dice rolling is not necessarily a good idea, especially in combat (where most spells are cast). Making spellcasters make a check every time they cast a spell is tedious and discouraging, and a huge nerf.

I proposed a change a while back, and repeated it in a recent thread: Caster Level Check replacing ASF, With Caster Level Checks built in.

I've always thought ASF was a dumb idea. When I did Project Phoenix, I replaced it with a Concentration check; all spellcasters, regardless of type, must make one when wearing armor, but you can take feats to mitigate it.

You could take it a step farther. Instead of metamagic being feats all the time, you could have it change the check DCs, and then the feats wouldnt all be used up (Often you regret taking them IME). It would be possible, right?

That would work well with your idea, yes.

Right now you can only counter spell if you are already waiting for a spell to be cast. Because of this, I have actually never seen counter spell be used as a counter. I've seen people use silence to stoop a mage in his tracks, but never seen anyone actually use counter spell.

Spellcasting provokes AoOs.

What if you could counterspell as an AoO? I could see it being at least a viable choice then.

Good idea, that. I think there's already a feat or two that does it - Reactive Counterspell, maybe?

I think it would require additional training (i.e., a feat or class ability) to able to toss off a counter as an immediate action instead of a readied one. When I redid the Wizard, I gave the specialist Abjurer the ability to sac a spell to cast dispel magic as a counterspell.

Honestly I'd propose further changes to counterspell, from my own thoughts, but maybe other people feel differently, so I'm open to input.

Changes:
To Counterspell, you no longer need to have the correct spell. You still need to Identify the spell, and then you need to make a dispel check instead of casting the correct spell.

My first reaction was to suggest making this an advanced usage, rather than a basic one, but how about we add this: using the correct spell grants a +2 bonus to the check; using dispel magic grants a +0 bonus, and using any other spell incurs a -2 penalty? The reasoning behind this, if it's not obvious, is that a specific counter (haste vs. slow) works better than a general dispelling, which works better than simply throwing some magical energy at the other spell.

If the altered Counterspell needs limits any or all of the following could be used:
1: Counterspelling can be counterspelled.

Nah. Then you'd have the "ring of spell turning" effect going (or the "interrupt effect", if you're familiar with M:TG).

2: While Counterspelling is an AoO, You cannot cast full round spells in a round you counterspelled.

That sounds good.

3: Counterspelling can only be done if you can cast the same level spells as the one youre trying to counter, and eats up a spell slot of that level (of higher, at caster's discretion).

I don't think this one would be necessary - that's what caster level checks are for. A L3 mage isn't very likely to counter a L15 mage's spell, but it could happen. That's what D&D is all about, IMO - the great moments that happen on a turn of the die.

Sylrae · Nov 14, 2009

Kerrick said:
More dice rolling is not necessarily a good idea, especially in combat (where most spells are cast). Making spellcasters make a check every time they cast a spell is tedious and discouraging, and a huge nerf.

I've always thought ASF was a dumb idea. When I did Project Phoenix, I replaced it with a Concentration check; all spellcasters, regardless of type, must make one when wearing armor, but you can take feats to mitigate it.

I was actually thinking of using both of these rolls, and combining them together. And for the making a check every time you cast a spell, the DCs wouldnt be nearly as high as most other things, but you'd have multiple things which affect it. (The DC would start at 0 instead of 10). And still allowing feats/class abilities to mitigate it.

But it could be affected by:
Armor
Carrying Load
Spell Level
Metamagic

And situational modifiers:
Underwater(or air, if youre an aquatic type)
Casting While Falling (maybe)
Bound
Really Tight Spaces
Combat Casting Penalties
Using the Wrong Limbs (I've loved this Idea ever since I read the War of the Spider Queen and saw Pharaun Mizzrym cast a spell with his feet (at great difficulty) while bound, after kicking off his boots).

Kerrick said:
That would work well with your idea, yes.

I've found that metamagic and item creation feats often suck, unless you have a very specific application for the one youre taking. I've toyed with the thought of letting all casters cast as though they have all the metamagic feats if theyre willing to use the higher spell levels. They would have to prep them that way though. Haven't actually tried it, but the thought has occurred to me.

Kerrick said:
Good idea, that. I think there's already a feat or two that does it - Reactive Counterspell, maybe?

I think it would require additional training (i.e., a feat or class ability) to able to toss off a counter as an immediate action instead of a readied one.

Hmm. I was kindof thinking that it would make counterspells actually happen, but I suppose if you make it a feat, then people can either have the readied counterspell or the reactive one.

Kerrick said:
When I redid the Wizard, I gave the specialist Abjurer the ability to sac a spell to cast dispel magic as a counterspell.

That's a pretty cool Idea too. And less drastic than what I'm suggesting.

Kerrick said:
My first reaction was to suggest making this an advanced usage, rather than a basic one, but how about we add this: using the correct spell grants a +2 bonus to the check; using dispel magic grants a +0 bonus, and using any other spell incurs a -2 penalty? The reasoning behind this, if it's not obvious, is that a specific counter (haste vs. slow) works better than a general dispelling, which works better than simply throwing some magical energy at the other spell.

I suppose that could work. I'd be inclined to bump it a notch, but only if the "throw some magic energy at it" becomes the standard action, instead of dispel. Essentially giving everyone the opportunity to burn a spell to dispel. Thing I'm not sure about is how to decide what you get for burning higher or lower slots. (Bonuses comparable to the Spell Level?) If I burn a higher spell slot to counter a spell than dispel magic is (say I burn an 8th level slot) That should be a better counter shouldn't it?
~We could give bonuses as you suggested in addition to the spell slot bonuses.
Opposed Spell (Slow/Haste): +6
Same Spell: +4
Dispel Magic: +2 (Greater Dispel gives the same +2, but also gives the bonus for the higher spell slot)
Same School: +1

I was thinking make counterspell a standard character option, without the prereq of having the same spell prepped. But if I burn a higher spell slot to counter your spell, I should get a bonus to counter it right? If I counter your level 3 spell with a level 6 spell slot, it should work better than countering it with dispel magic. That is, unless we drop the concept of burning slots entirely and just allow people to counterspell all willy-nilly, but that could get annoying/out of hand.

Kerrick said:
Nah. Then you'd have the "ring of spell turning" effect going (or the "interrupt effect", if you're familiar with M:TG).

And that's...... baad? The interrupt effect was what I was modeling this after. I thought the idea was amusing, even if only for counterspell. In the case of a counterspell-chain, you'd just resolve it via initiative (or via initiative bonus if someone does it outside of combat). Plus, if casting your regular readied spell triggers AoOs, why wouldn't this one? If caster A1 is casting a spell, caster B1 is trying to dispel it, why can't fighter A2 stab Caster B1 to stop him from getting in the way? (or why cant someone counter his counter? - he'd have to have taken the Counterspell Interrupt Feat anyways (or had a readied action), right?)

Kerrick said:
I don't think this one would be necessary - that's what caster level checks are for. A L3 mage isn't very likely to counter a L15 mage's spell, but it could happen. That's what D&D is all about, IMO - the great moments that happen on a turn of the die.

I mainly mentioned it in case my Idea was too powerful as another possible nerf.

I'm starting to see this coming together into a viable option.

Kerrick · Nov 14, 2009

Sylrae said:
I was actually thinking of using both of these rolls, and combining them together. And for the making a check every time you cast a spell, the DCs wouldnt be nearly as high as most other things, but you'd have multiple things which affect it. (The DC would start at 0 instead of 10). And still allowing feats/class abilities to mitigate it.

But it could be affected by:

Try not to add too many modifiers, or it'll get overly complicated. Encumbrance, for example, could probably go - not many people use it. The rest are already included in the game, so it shouldn't be a huge change.

Using the Wrong Limbs (I've loved this Idea ever since I read the War of the Spider Queen and saw Pharaun Mizzrym cast a spell with his feet (at great difficulty) while bound, after kicking off his boots).

With his feet?

I've found that metamagic and item creation feats often suck, unless you have a very specific application for the one youre taking.

Yes they do - that's why I ditched IC feats entirely and rolled item creation into the Crafting skill.

I've toyed with the thought of letting all casters cast as though they have all the metamagic feats if theyre willing to use the higher spell levels. They would have to prep them that way though. Haven't actually tried it, but the thought has occurred to me.

I was thinking this over earlier (metamagic) and I came up with much the same idea. Mind you, this is a bit complicated, but most of my ideas are when I first toss them out.

Basically, anyone can metamagic on the fly, but it requires a full-round action and a caster level/Concentration check. Spontaneous casters only require the check, not the full-round action, as they're more used to manipulating magic. Alternately, you can cast the spell at a higher level (using the normal modifier) without the increased time or the check.

If you have the feat, you can cast the spell on the fly at its normal level as a standard action (or free action, for quickened spells) with only a check. Spontaneous casters can cast the modified spell on the fly without a check.

Yes, this means that wizards/clerics/etc. can only cast quickened spells with the level increase, while bards and sorcerers can cast them freely.

Hmm. I was kindof thinking that it would make counterspells actually happen, but I suppose if you make it a feat, then people can either have the readied counterspell or the reactive one.

Yeah.

That's a pretty cool Idea too. And less drastic than what I'm suggesting.

Thanks.

I suppose that could work. I'd be inclined to bump it a notch, but only if the "throw some magic energy at it" becomes the standard action, instead of dispel. Essentially giving everyone the opportunity to burn a spell to dispel. Thing I'm not sure about is how to decide what you get for burning higher or lower slots. (Bonuses comparable to the Spell Level?) If I burn a higher spell slot to counter a spell than dispel magic is (say I burn an 8th level slot) That should be a better counter shouldn't it?

Easy - the difference between the level of the spell you're using as a counter and the level of the spell you're countering. For example, Bob the Mage is casting time stop; Fred tries to counter using greater dispel. Fred's spell is 3 levels lower, so he suffers a penalty (I'd go with -3).

~We could give bonuses as you suggested in addition to the spell slot bonuses.
Opposed Spell (Slow/Haste): +6
Same Spell: +4
Dispel Magic: +2 (Greater Dispel gives the same +2, but also gives the bonus for the higher spell slot)
Same School: +1

How about...

Disjunction: +6
Opposed spell: +5
Greater dispel: +4
Same spell: +3
Dispel magic: +2
Same school: +1
Different school (must be higher level): -2
Each level difference between the countering spell and the spell to be countered: +/-1

And that's...... baad? The interrupt effect was what I was modeling this after. I thought the idea was amusing, even if only for counterspell. In the case of a counterspell-chain, you'd just resolve it via initiative (or via initiative bonus if someone does it outside of combat).

I'm just thinking of having to pause combat because of a chain of interrupts going on. Combat's already complicated enough without having that too. One AoO is fine; a whole chain of them will tie things up too long, IMO.