Flaganus vs. Module Plot

Kzach · Jan 25, 2010

So, I ran the Flaganus encounter and the players, being clever cookies, immediately tried Diplomacy and then Intimidate.

Both succeeded.

I was feeling really sick at the time of running it and was running a fever so I wasn't really in the best of mind-sets and ended up slavishly following the module text.

In other words, I ignored the rolls. I really regret doing this as I hate that kind of thing as a player so I started trying to think of how I could've done things differently. In hindsight, though, I'm not sure how I could've changed anything.

Intimidate is just too damn powerful. But that's not the real issue. The issue is that there's really not much you could do in this situation. He's not about to hand over the kid, and the PC's aren't about to let him go.

So how would you 'fix' this encounter?

Morrus · Jan 25, 2010

Although you can use Intimidate to get a bloodied enemy to surrender, I'd have house-ruled that to say that the party had to have bloodied him. Otherwise you could technically walk into a hospital and intimidate everyone.

Situational modifiers are also the DM's best friend.

Kzach · Jan 25, 2010

Morrus said:
Situational modifiers are also the DM's best friend.

I didn't consider that but a situational modifier is usually a +2 in 4e, and the Intimidate roll was 28 meaning it passed by 3.

Part of the problem, of course, was that I just didn't foresee the intimidate issue (or diplomacy for that matter). If I had, I think I would've changed his hit points to 2/3 instead of bloodied. That way, the tension of the kid situation still occurs and the party is still motivated to burn dailies on him (my players were pissed at him and I figure most people would be).

The main problem, though, is that the situation doesn't allow for any other result, regardless of what the players do or say. As a DM and player, I really don't like that.

Part of what interested me in running WotBS in the first place was the obvious effort that had been made to allow for a variety of outcomes and situations. It's what I feel both makes it good and challenging to run as a DM, and interesting and challenging to play through.

I guess there will be exceptions to this, but it would be nice to have some alternative directions that the encounter could take. Normally I would've let things play out naturally, but I could see the importance of making the enemy a real enemy in the minds of the players, hence my hesitation when running the encounter and my query here on how it could be done differently whilst effecting the same result.

Kneecleaver · Jan 25, 2010

Maybe there is something I'm not seeing, but is there a problem with them actually cowing him, saving the child and taking him captive? Flanagus knows that he's got mates not far behind him so any imprisonment won't last that long. Then you could have a mob rules scene at the safehouse, if they actually take him there. Otherwise you might have a situation where the party has a prisoner and they need to do something with him.

I'm not intimately familar with these modules yet, but I don't see a major problem with the encounter turning out different than laid forth in the module, it doesn't seem to be a lynchpin unless I'm overlooking something.

If a party does well with both Diplomacy and Intimidate, they should have a resolution to this that reflects that. Flaganus has both a 14 INT and WIS, he's not a mindless beast that is only going to react in a Fight/Flight manner. He knows that he's dead if he takes on the party and just maybe these week willed people will delay executing him long enough that he gets rescued, or perhaps he can escape. To me this kind of resolution is just as interesting as a combat. Plus they get to save the kid's life.

Daern · Jan 25, 2010

I think it would have been legitimate to require those checks to be part of a skill challenge (a la WOTBS guide "changing attitudes"), but that would be even more of a drag for a sick DM... Its a tough call. The orc is definitely a cornered animal in this scene. He's just killed the mother and more or less ready to die. I think its legit to say that a bloodied orc is in his "bloodied rage" state from Warrior's Surge and therefore even less intimidated... Hope it was a good fight!

Kneecleaver · Jan 25, 2010

Durn said:
I think it would have been legitimate to require those checks to be part of a skill challenge (a la WOTBS guide "changing attitudes")...

digression
This is off the subject of the thread, but I really hate skill challenges in 4E. I like the concept of what they try to present, but the execution of the concept is sorely lacking. I just do skill stuff free form as I always have. I think the entire skill challenge structure was really unnecessary.
/digression

Truename · Jan 25, 2010

Kzach said:
I guess there will be exceptions to this, but it would be nice to have some alternative directions that the encounter could take. Normally I would've let things play out naturally, but I could see the importance of making the enemy a real enemy in the minds of the players, hence my hesitation when running the encounter and my query here on how it could be done differently whilst effecting the same result.

My group is starting our WotBS campaign tomorrow, so I haven't played this encounter yet. But it's one of the ones that stood out for me on my read-through. I like it because it establishes, early on, that this is a campaign world where there's consequences beyond winning or losing a fight, and there isn't always a happy ending.

In my notes, I put Flaganus down as "desperate and disoriented." He's trapped behind enemy lines and he just fell out of the sky and took massive damage. If this were to come up with my group, I think I'd do the same thing you did. I'd roleplay an effect of the check, but the end result would be the same. For diplomacy, I'd have him back slowly out of the room, threatening the hostage, then turning and fleeing when out of sight. For intimidate, I'd have him turn and flee immediately, throwing the baby in order to slow down the party.

Thanks for bringing this up! My group will probably try something similar, so it's nice to discuss it in advance.

samursus · Jan 25, 2010

My group did this encounter last night. They basically told FM that he wasn't leaving the building while he had the kid, so he did what he was supposed to according to the text. And man, was the party ever mad! Characters jumping in, using action points, full out rage assault. Flaganus really shone the first 3 or 4 rounds, dropping one character to 0 hps in 1 attack and almost doing the same to the defender. Unfortunately, his rolls took a bit of a nosedive after that AND I forgot he was bloodied! So my players ended up taking him out at full hps! Thus actually worked out well, because they missed out on xp from Animal Crossing and Shocking Revelations.

housefull · Jan 26, 2010

If a party does well with both Diplomacy and Intimidate, they should have a resolution to this that reflects that. Flaganus has both a 14 INT and WIS, he's not a mindless beast that is only going to react in a Fight/Flight manner. He knows that he's dead if he takes on the party and just maybe these week willed people will delay executing him long enough that he gets rescued, or perhaps he can escape. To me this kind of resolution is just as interesting as a combat. Plus they get to save the kid's life.

Daern · Jan 26, 2010

They are a bit of a pain sometimes but can also be a good structure. Anyways my point I guess was not to let the one or two high rolls determine the encounter, ask for a few more rolls and give yourself room to negotiate. Sometimes when my players get a super high roll on a skill check I feel a bit like a deer in headlights -"Now what?"

Flaganus vs. Module Plot

Kzach

Banned

Morrus

Well, that was fun

Kzach

Banned

Kneecleaver

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Daern

Explorer

Kneecleaver

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Truename

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samursus

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housefull

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Daern

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