Warden Armor Class

Felon · Apr 30, 2010

A member of my group has expressed interest in trying a warden. This is something of a watershed as he does not own the books is just to content to keep playing a Dreadnought build in any campaign (and really, who can blame him?).

However, last week he arrives at the gaming table and declares that playing a warden is a non-starter for him. "Lots of HP, but terrible AC". He and a more-rules-savvy friend had sat down at the character builder to hash it out, so it wasn't just a result of his lack of acumen.

This was a disappointment for me. I'd never a warden in play, so I was eager to see if they were as sticky a defender as I'd hoped. I figured they were taking a bit of an AC hit to get the best HP, but if they're wearing hide, and getting nothing more than their secondary ability score to boost it, then they're not even keeping pace with chainmail squishies, forget scale.

Probably old news for a lot of you guys, but my group has limited themselves to fighters and paladins 'lo these few years. I'd like to re-sell him on the warden. Any crazy little feats eluding us?

Aulirophile · Apr 30, 2010

Swordmages will have 53 AC at level 30 (highest single class-defender non-cheese AC that I know of). A properly made Warden should have 48 if he uses a shield, 46 without. If you don't get a shield, you aren't any worse off then a fighter who goes 2h (which is a perfectly viable build).

If you want to be nice, though, give him Mark of Warding as an allowable feat and have him take Forms that increase is his AC by 1 (now 2). Every time he is in a form he'll have +2 AC.

Wardens are fine even without that, though. /shrug.

On Puget Sound · Apr 30, 2010

Hide 3
Heavy Shield 2
Con or Wis 3 or 4 depending on race

18-19 at level 1 without any feats is not spectacular, but not bad. Remember, an unhittable defender will get his mark ignored, and wardens have one of the more ignorable marks, so you want to be a bit hittable.

mneme · Apr 30, 2010

Not every class is an 18/14/11 build -- and the Warden--with AC and secondary features based on a secondary stat, definitely isn't.

Build the warden as a 16/16 and with a statbump, he's keeping pace with the fighters in scale.

A dwarven warden has a 17 AC (without a shield), has amazing things happen when he second winds (eg, every encounter) -- They either end up with the highest AC in the game, let an ally heal, or lockdown every marked enemy they have, or nerf every marked enemy. Non-dwarves will use the 2nd wind ability less often, but still to great effect.

The key points in favor of the Warden:

Multi-marking. The warden is the only defender that can trivially mark multiple defenders. Fighter builds can do it when they dual strike; paladins can do it with the right at will -- but a warden can hit a crowd of enemies, mark them all, and then use any attack in her arsenal.

Status effects: Wardens are great at giving out status effects like slowed, prone, and immoblilized that make it hard for enemies to get away (or, sometimes, attack anyone at all. And they're fantastic at throwing -off- status effects with the Font of Life feature.

Self-buffs: Paladin dailies are typically "I attack and spend a surge" or "I attack for a lot of damage" Fighter dailies are typically "I attack for a lot of damage", with the occasional self-buff that has to hit to do anything at all (and, yes, the occasional stance like Rain of Blows). But nearly all warden dailies are self-buffs, and they've got upgrades of the early polymorphs all up the chain -- such that you can build around a particular style of buff, rather than having to go with a grab bag.

Felon · May 1, 2010

The array we use is 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10. We're 11th level.

The fighter in scale has an AC of 27.

The warden in hide with a 19 Con has an AC of 25.

They can both add in shields and armor specialization. The fighter can spring for plate proficiency with one feat, while the warden has to start climbing the ladder from two rungs behind.

Are we standing pat, or can the warden up the ante?

Fifth Element · May 1, 2010

On Puget Sound said:
18-19 at level 1 without any feats is not spectacular, but not bad. Remember, an unhittable defender will get his mark ignored, and wardens have one of the more ignorable marks, so you want to be a bit hittable.

That's true. What's the point of having the most hit points if you never use them?

mneme · May 1, 2010

That's a terrible array. Among other things, yes, it absolutely screws over most classes that aren't fighter -- because most classes don't care about more than 3 stats. So forcing people to throw 5 statpoints away for nothing is a big wet sloppy kiss to anyone wearing heavy armor, and, secondarily, to anyone whose AC stat is also their attack stat (eg, rogues, wizards, swordmages, artificers).

That said, your numbers seem off, so...lemme see...
10
Starting con: 16 (because with that terrible array, you're starting with a race that gets a con/wis bump or you're going nowhere). + 3 (bumps over levels = 19) so +4
Hide: +3
Spec: +1
Heavy shield: +2
Level: +5
Enhancement: +3
So 28. 25 without a shield or spec.

Fighter:
10 + 7 + 1 (plate) + 1 (masterwork) +3 (enhancement) + 5 (level) = 27

Ok, so -specifically- at 11th level, when playing in a game with suboptimal arrays, and for one fewer feat, a warden's going to be three points of AC behind a fighter, those points being:
The fighter's extra masterwork bonus kicks in at +3 items, which one gets at around 9th level (give or take). The warden's stat bonus has to wait until 14th level. Yay, bubble. The warden does have +1 Fort from masterwork, though.
Becaues the campaign is structured to disadvantage classes with an important secondary stat and no important tertiary stats, the warden starts out at -1 AC from where he should be.
The fighter's spent a feat to upgrade to plate. Of course, the warden can find -plenty- to spend feats on, even if she doesn't get a similar "upgrade to better-than-hide" feat until epic levels.

Felon · May 1, 2010

mneme said:
That's a terrible array. Among other things, yes, it absolutely screws over most classes that aren't fighter -- because most classes don't care about more than 3 stats. So forcing people to throw 5 statpoints away for nothing is a big wet sloppy kiss to anyone wearing heavy armor, and, secondarily, to anyone whose AC stat is also their attack stat (eg, rogues, wizards, swordmages, artificers).

That said, your numbers seem off, so...lemme see...
10
Starting con: 16 (because with that terrible array, you're starting with a race that gets a con/wis bump or you're going nowhere). + 3 (bumps over levels = 19, so +4
Hide: +3
Spec: +1
Heavy shield: +2
Level: +5
Enhancement: +3
So 29. 27 without a shield.

Actually, your numbers seem off. They add up to 28, 26 without a shield. As stated, I didn't factor in armor specialization or shield (because I'm parsing out the stuff that's a push for both warden and fighter), so my 25 was correct unless there's something giving a +1 that I've missed.

Fifth Element said:
That's true. What's the point of having the most hit points if you never use them?

Getting hit on a 13 or 14 is a far cry from never taking damage, to say nothing of NAD attacks and auto-damage. The pit fighter got bloodied during our last session, and he's a mega-tank.

On Puget Sound said:
18-19 at level 1 without any feats is not spectacular, but not bad. Remember, an unhittable defender will get his mark ignored, and wardens have one of the more ignorable marks, so you want to be a bit hittable.

Thing is, saying the warden has one of the more ignorable marks isn't an argument in favor of accepting lower AC so much as it is another argument for sticking with fighter.

Aulirophile · May 1, 2010

Felon said:
Getting hit on a 13 or 14 is a far cry from never taking damage, to say nothing of NAD attacks and auto-damage. The pit fighter got bloodied during our last session, and he's a mega-tank.

He took what is essentially a striker Paragon Path and he is a mega-tank?

Con Wardens can take Second Skin at epic, better then armor spec. A fighter will have 25+spec+PP (assuming pit fighter)+armor+enhance+shield at 30. That is 48 AC... exactly what a Warden will have. Without forms. In forms a Warden will usually have at least +1 to AC (more with Mark of Warding), if not more (level 15 daily has +2 AC, for instance). Reflex and Will will be semi-weak with either Earthstrength or Storm Wardens, but on the other hand you can second wind 3 times an encounter and each time add your con mod to all defenses. In addition to the normal bonus. That is +10 to all defenses 3 times/encounter, with your mark as a free action. Even a non-dwarf can make many of those free/minor actions every day. For a Dwarf of course they are all minors. If you're a Goliath when you SW enemies take an additional penalty to hit anyone who isn't you equal to your con mod. So -10 to hit not you, and you have +10 to all defenses. Oh, and you have around 50 more HP during epic and almost 20 surges.

Warden AC is fine. Fighters out-strip every other defender for mechanical reasons, not their defenses.

Sanzuo · May 1, 2010

Aulirophile said:
Warden AC is fine.

And how!

Your friend is a whiner if he thinks warden AC is no good. All characters are a little dodgey the first 2-3 levels, but once he finds his stride he'll realize that a properly built warden is nearly unkillable.

In fact, one thing I will caution warden players about is making their warden TOO beefy. It gives the enemy less incentive to attack you. Concentrate on builds that make your warden sticky. Slow enemies, trip them up, get mark of warding...

...and Form of Winter's Herald.