D+D Power Creep

Sasahara · Jan 18, 2011

I've been playing various incarnations of D+D since 1980, and have recently gotten into the 4e game (thanks, Critical Hit podcast!)

I have the PHB, DMG, and MM. I have flipped through most of the classes in the PHB, and was looking at the PHB3 last week. It looks to me like the charater classes in PHB3 are inherently more powerful than those in the PHB. The monk, for instance, gets movement AND attacks for all his/her at-will powers. Noone in the PHB gets such benefits.

Then I was reading the thread on broken powers here on EN World, and saw people talking about how the monster damage is increasing to keep up with the power of the characters.

My question is: is it even worth trying to play a character created from the PHB?

I know with previous editions of the game, playing a straight fighter for example became a useless proposition because other classes had been created who could blow the fighter out of the water. My frustration with this power creep led me to stop buying D+D materials. At this point, I play a 3.5 campaign which is deliberately limited to the original three core books in order to keep that power creep at bay.

Before I invest too much into 4e, am I going to hit the same problems here?

Thanks for your help!

Runestar · Jan 18, 2011

From my understanding, monster damage was increased because the original monsters did too little damage, even against core-only builds. Most notable were minions. So later MMs are supposed to be stealth errata of sorts.

Power creep is inevitable, but thanks to 4e design, it won't really break the game like 4e.

Mengu · Jan 18, 2011

Actually some of the most potent powers and feats are from the PHB, but you're right, it would be a bit of a handicap to ignore the existence of other resources. So much has evolved through time.

The monster stat modifications are more of an adjustment to the way the game plays, than due to a necessity for power creep. Combat at high levels was too slow in PHB only days. Through time PC's got the ability to kill monsters faster, and monsters got the ability to hurt PC's more, so now combat is faster.

There have been mathematical issues with attack bonuses and defenses, which have been shored up with a variety of tools. Damage shortcomings for some PHB classes, and even some post PHB classes were shored up.

D&D 4e is an evolving system. A PHB only character does stand a bit like a dinosaur at the moment. Some of the designs in the PHB were based on what the designers thought the players would want, but those choices were too obviously outclassed by even some of the PHB choices. So lots needed to be fixed, updated, and renewed.

renau1g · Jan 18, 2011

A straight-up ranger should do pretty decent. A daggermaster rogue is also a good choice. Fighters are awesome (best defender IMO). Wizard is sub-par in PHB-only. Warlock's damage level is too low for a striker. Str-clerics are just meh. Paladin's are also pretty weak. Warlord's are also pretty good in PHB.

BobTheNob · Jan 18, 2011

Its funny that. Our party, which is now so old its all PHB1 characters as that was all that was out at the time, had its first epic run last night! Level 21!

Everyone is so happy and proud.

To commemorate the occasion I had the adventure open with them needs to defend a breach in the castle walls and watch in horror as 4 titans (2 fire,2 frost, from the Monster Vault) came smashing in.

Then I watched in horror as the party proceeded to completely dismantle the titans in just under 3 rounds. It was the most one - sided whoopings I have ever witnessed.

No way do I think for even a microsecond that PHB1 classes are left behind by powercreep. It was just scary what I saw them do. The titans were bloodied, dazed, immobilized, prone and taking ongoing damage before they even know what hit them...PHB1 classes are tough as ever.

renau1g · Jan 18, 2011

Bob - is that PHB1 classes with all the options added in or just was just the PHB1 only used? I think that's the OP's question, whether a PHB-only character would be far inferior to a full-WotC options PC.

BobTheNob · Jan 18, 2011

renau1g said:
Bob - is that PHB1 classes with all the options added in or just was just the PHB1 only used? I think that's the OP's question, whether a PHB-only character would be far inferior to a full-WotC options PC.

Oh ok. Thats PHB1 classes with all options available that made it into original builder (still using).

That said, 3 paragon picks (out of six) are PHB1, but epic paths are mainly from "power" books. Feats and powers are probably half PHB1, the rest "power" books and dragon.

Give the dearth of material available, thats not bad for material from an original publication.

Mengu · Jan 18, 2011

BobTheNob said:
Oh ok. Thats PHB1 classes with all options available that made it into original builder (still using).

That said, 3 paragon picks (out of six) are PHB1, but epic paths are mainly from "power" books. Feats and powers are probably half PHB1, the rest "power" books and dragon.

Give the dearth of material available, thats not bad for material from an original publication.

Any items from AV? Like a dwarf with a Mordenkrad or stuff like Iron Armbands and Staff of Ruin? Any PHB2 feats like Expertise? Or multiclass feats like Bardic Dilettante? Or racial feats like Versatile Master?

Aegeri · Jan 18, 2011

renau1g said:
Bob - is that PHB1 classes with all the options added in or just was just the PHB1 only used? I think that's the OP's question, whether a PHB-only character would be far inferior to a full-WotC options PC.

Not really, no. Considering that most of those really good builds you see all rely on PHB options the OP is mostly fine. The PHB also has the strongest classes in the game by far, with some of the best PPs and EDs.

The exceptions are Warlocks, who really feel the lack of extra stuff that seriously gave them a boost in power up to everyone else. Strength Clerics are inefficient now once Righteous Brand was nerfed and healer's lore/surgeless healing changed. Otherwise I think most things in the original PHB are exceptionally competent, especially the Warlord, Rogue, Ranger, Fighter and Wizard. You know, that's pretty much everything.

Dice4Hire · Jan 18, 2011

WOTC learned a lot about 4E from PHBBI and PHBIII. The PHBIII classes are steadier, but I am not sure if they are more powerful. Now PHBII classes, I think have a bit more power overall.

This is talking PHB only, no DDI, splatbooks etc. I think all the classes are pretty good right now, expect Runepriest and Seeker, which need a splatbook.

Personally, I want to see a PHBI redo with what they have learned from the last couple of years.

D+D Power Creep

Sasahara

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Runestar

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Mengu

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renau1g

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BobTheNob

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renau1g

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BobTheNob

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Mengu

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Aegeri

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Dice4Hire

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