Alignment Question - Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil?

Arthur Redwyne · Sep 21, 2011

I would like to ask if the following set of actions constitute a chaotic evil act or a chaotic neutral act. They were perpetuated by a chaotic neutral elven barbarian with a rather unsavory player who is in the same D&D club I am in.

1. Jump into game after the ending boss is defeated, without having seen him.

2. Steal, by sleight of hand, the "key" to the final chest from a fellow player.

3. Take pick of best loot.

The player the "key" was stolen from was me and before I could do anything the loot had been distributed. The DM threatened me with a Chaotic Evil Alignmnet if i attacked the barbarian but he is green behind the ears so I was hoping to ask if anyone here could give input. If there is a consensus that he was in the right as a chaotic neutral character I will drop the issue. Otherwise I will bring complaint to the club officers concerning this.

Thank you for your time.

Cor Azer · Sep 21, 2011

While not explicitly evil, they are the actions of a jerk.

Arthur Redwyne · Sep 21, 2011

Cor Azer said:
While not explicitly evil, they are the actions of a jerk.

Thanks, I never figured otherwise but it feels good to hear it said. My now former DM says that the character was playing by his alignment and had done nothing wrong. As I said, my DM is also new - this was his first game. Before the player stole from me I had offered to roll d20 to see who would get to use the key, but then he just went ahead with a sleight of hand check on me followed by an acrobatics mauever. If you haven't realized it yet, I am your typical honorable idiot and he was playing an overpwered character.

However, is it that you believe that this is the act of someone that is Chaotic Neutral?

billd91 · Sep 21, 2011

There's no way a character is "in the right" simply because he does something as a jerk and has a chaotic neutral alignment. Being in the right means you've done the right thing by moral and ethical standards. Stealing doesn't live up to those standards no matter what your character's alignment.

As a chaotic neutral character, the barbarian doesn't feel bound to do either good nor perpetrate evil nor does he feel particularly bound by external obligations. Stealing could be quite in character but that doesn't mean he's "in the right".

Of course, assuming you're not particularly good yourself, attacking him for it could also be quite in character. Your DM is, as far as I'm concerned, right out of order by threatening to slap you with CE for attacking someone who stole from you.

But what you should do is school this newbie player with proper table etiquette. Stealing from other party members and saying something like "I'm chaotic neutral" is an excuse won't fly. That's just a player trying to cover his own jerk behavior and it's sure to cause trouble not just within the party but also between players. And if he keeps it up, threats from the DM that your own character will become CE won't stop you.

Arthur Redwyne · Sep 21, 2011

[MENTION=44640]bill[/MENTION]

I seriously have no power over the guy, I am a newb myself. The DM is the final authority in the game unless I appeal to the higher officers in the club. That and the guy in question hates me, I kept trying to stop him from stealing the entire module and hand the loot out evenly to all party members.

I just hadn't figured he would go so low.

steeldragons · Sep 21, 2011

I concur on the "jerk"...but then, it is more than likely that a CN character would come across as a jerk. If the player's a jerk, then unfortunately there's really nothing we can do to help you.

For the PC, however, here's what I got fer ya...

This is how I define CN for my game/world:

[FONT=&quot]CHAOTIC NEUTRAL (CN): "The Free Spirit" A character choosing to be chaotic neutral is, by no means, insane (though certainly could be as disturbed as any other alignment). Unpredictable, perhaps, but not insane. They are the ultimate examples of "freedom." They hold no ethical qualms or chains to upholding "order" or respect for the "law" of authority. Morally, they are freed of the constraints of "good" or "evil" feeling no obligation to the bettering of society or its downfall.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] They simply wish to "be." To be allowed to pursue their interests and desires without judgments, without contempt, without (as above) obligation to anyone but themselves. They are not necessarily interested in seeking to harm anyone and they are definitely against anyone seeking to harm them/interfere with their pursuits. So if harming someone becomes necessary to further their goals (including, say, self preservation), so be it. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] A CN character is not about to constrain/submit themselves to someone else's arbitrary rules. Nor will he accept the judgement of anyone by themselves. "Good" or "evil" only matter in so far as they promote or interfere with their personal freedom to pursue their life. I think many, many rogues of all walks of life would choose to be CN: Bards, swashbucklers, thieves (probably not in a guild, but could be)...also rangers, barbarians, revolutionaries of all kinds and others who value freedom above order. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Here is [/FONT]the definition as sited by ENworlder @cperkins from his most excellent redo of the 1e Players Handbook for his homebrew (you can grab it for yourself here: http://www.adnd3egame.com/documents/ADD3primeless.pdf . It's a big file so be warned. and his definition is a bit clearer/more elegantly put than my own):

Chaotic Neutral, “Free Spirit”: A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn‘t strive to protect others‘ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions.

A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random.

His definition of Chaotic Evil is also pretty much the same as mine, so I'll just post his again:

Chaotic Evil, “Destroyer”: A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. His plans may be worked out well in advance, but their implementation will often be haphazard, and any group he forms is likely to be poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil creatures can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him. Chaotic evil is sometimes called ―demonic because demons are the epitome of chaotic evil.

Chaotic evil represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend.

So I'd say, sounds like the Barbarian is acting in a fairly clear cut Chaotic Neutral way (in so far as CN can be clear cut)...and being a jerk. Sorry.

The party can is the PC down and have a conversation about his behavior, but from a CN character, I wouldn't be expecting a whole lot of altering/constraining his behavior to suit the party's desires.

What alignment is your character? Maybe you could just kill him in his sleep.

--SD

Arthur Redwyne · Sep 21, 2011

I am Lawful Neutral, and I have completely stopped playing with the DM and player in question exactly because I would have tried attacking him the next time I entered a module with him. Although I wonder if I should not complain to the club about this conduct. They are hoping to expand and bad players can spoil it for newbies like me.

I would have attacked him earlier but he was overpowered and I had no backup.

steeldragons · Sep 21, 2011

Arthur Redwyne said:
@bill

I seriously have no power over the guy, I am a newb myself. The DM is the final authority in the game unless I appeal to the higher officers in the club. That and the guy in question hates me, I kept trying to stop him from stealing the entire module and hand the loot out evenly to all party members.

I just hadn't figured he would go so low.

It is possible, you know, that his character may be Chaotic Evil...and is lying to the party about it (since not too many people would consciously want a CE person in their midsts).

Similarly, he may actually be a thief of some kind and using "barbarian" as a cover.

I don't know...but it's possible.

EDIT: And why are you playing with someone who hates you? Are the other players and DM aware of this? What do they think of the guy...or you?
--SD

Bedrockgames · Sep 21, 2011

Arthur Redwyne said:
I would like to ask if the following set of actions constitute a chaotic evil act or a chaotic neutral act. They were perpetuated by a chaotic neutral elven barbarian with a rather unsavory player who is in the same D&D club I am in.

1. Jump into game after the ending boss is defeated, without having seen him.

2. Steal, by sleight of hand, the "key" to the final chest from a fellow player.

3. Take pick of best loot.

The player the "key" was stolen from was me and before I could do anything the loot had been distributed. The DM threatened me with a Chaotic Evil Alignmnet if i attacked the barbarian but he is green behind the ears so I was hoping to ask if anyone here could give input. If there is a consensus that he was in the right as a chaotic neutral character I will drop the issue. Otherwise I will bring complaint to the club officers concerning this.

Thank you for your time.

I am having trouble understanding point 1 (not sure what you mean by "jump into game".

But these sound more chaotic neutral on the surface than evil. Taking his pick of the loot is greedy and kind of crude, but it is also exactly what I'd expect a CN character to do. Stealing a key from another character also sounds more in the realm of Neutrality (and right up the alley of a chaotic neutral character). Now if your character realized he was stolen from and assaulted the CN guy, I wouldn't characterize your actions as evil (unless you lopped his head of or something). But if you demanded the key back and backed up the demand with the threat of violence, that is within the realm of good provided you weren't planning to kill him.

Bedrockgames · Sep 21, 2011

Arthur Redwyne said:
I am Lawful Neutral, and I have completely stopped playing with the DM and player in question exactly because I would have tried attacking him the next time I entered a module with him. Although I wonder if I should not complain to the club about this conduct. They are hoping to expand and bad players can spoil it for newbies like me.

I would have attacked him earlier but he was overpowered and I had no backup.

Honestly I think you are over-reacting a bit (unless there is more background information I missed). If you have an issue with how the game is being conducted, speak with the GM and/or the player in question. But it sounds like you are taking the in-game antics a bit too personally.