Collaboration for a New Game

Hello all

Well I have sometime thinking on this, create my own game, this is for my games and for those who want to use it, and I will like to receive some feedback for my thoughts. The core idea of this is to make a game very simple but allows a lot of customization like LEGO, where all the math are congruent and transparent, something like an amalgam between Pathfinder and 4e but also heavily inspired in GURPS and even Rifts, but most of all that supports all kinds of games, when I say this is because virtually no game supports high level play, the Mythic playtest from Pathfinder was disappointing and DnD Next have great ideas when I read it be poorly executed in playtest at least for me, U_K is the only one that I know who did, and this is why I post this in this forum and Immortals Handbook was a great inspiration and also because I trust in the experience of the people who post here.

So lets start, this is intended to be a classless system, why? because is very customizable and also make things simple to update and allow weird combinations which would otherwise require multiclassing, prestige classes, archetypes and none of these options really convinces me. The level progression would be something like every odd level you gain a feat and every even level you gain an increment to one ability score, also every level must give you something (like points I guess) to buy abilities that are normally class abilities. So when you level up you buy the ability that you wanted also the cap level is settle according to campaign. For skills I really like what Pathfinder did. There will not be base attack and saves something that 4e did great, Why? because is the core of the problem of the broken math for high level, also I like how you just add half your level on everything. No more level adjustment or ECL just CR like Pathfinder.

Class abilities comes in any game in two types: passive and active. Passive abilities are always running not need to do anything to activate. Active abilities are activated and have some cost to activate, well here this cost will be points like the psionic point system, any kind of ability from spells to martial maneuver will have cost in this form. With this all kind of characters can have nice abilities, part of this is to make fighter like classes in something more interesting like those presented in Tomes of Battle. This abilities needs to be effective at any level.

For the magic, powers, channels, maneuvers, etc. I think in something like a combination of words of power from Pathfinder and the psionic power point, when you can merg word and augment the power with this you can have a great variety of option only knowing a few words-spells and use them at any level. I have identified six sources of power that are represented for a class and any other class is just a variation or combination of those with a different flavor:

Psionic -> Psion
Arcane -> Wizard
Divine -> Cleric
Martial -> Fighter
Stealth -> Rogue
Other -> Monk (Other is not the most precise word here but I can't find another for now)

Other things are how make monster transparent with this universal class like 3.5 but also easy and quickly to make like 4e, so you can play with a monster like a dragon or a vampire, I guess it will be something similar for races like the race builder in Pathfinder, part of this is to make the game easier for everyone players, GM and developers. Armor, shield, and natural will be damage reduction.

That is all I can remember for now, please fell free to add, help, criticize. I will add more things.

Well, let's continue, I would like to clarify and expand some of the things I wrote previously.

One of the issues I still can't resolve are about hit points and skill points, the only solution that occurs to me for now is to buy them at level up with the same points used to buy class abilities.
About levels and CR they will be equivalent, Level = CR, for monster's abilities bound to HD will change to CR, like for example SR or Integrated class feature. But here are another problem with no more base attack and saves is there a need for HD? I'm not sure.

Magic items need to be created according to well established formulas like the ones presented in the creation section of 3.5 or Pathfinder, that reminds me no more XP cost for nothing like Pathfinder. Technology is another thing I think interesting to include, I remember once my group try to mix 3.5 with d20 future but that was very troublesome, different prices, dice for damage, the cap level at 20.

Perhaps some people are wondering why use points as cost for abilities, well besides what I mentioned previously I don't like the vancian system for too many reasons, to many constraints and is a poorly representation of what I have seen in fantasy.

as you can see my analysis is still far from over, I still need to check more deeply 4e.

Howdy eduar mate!

I'm working tonight so don't have much time to go over this (I'll do a longer reply tomorrow night when I have pondered more on it) but my initial thoughts would be that creating your own RPG is a far larger endeavour than you might otherwise anticipate and that modifying an existing RPG a much easier task.

As regards high level play in general I don't know how effective my ideas were in making that feasible. I still think Ascension is too complex for general play.

4E Epic/Immortals could have been amazing - I just made a complete balls-up getting my act together and that chance has arguably passed by now.

Pathfinder Mythic I am still in the dark about. Certainly haven't paid any attention to it for the past 3 months so I don't know what developments they have made (although the Wayne Reynolds cover looks nice) since then.

D&D Next may or may not be the answer. Again I don't know enough about it yet and ultimately it may just succeed in splitting the fanbase further.

Hey there U_K

It was never my intention to create a new RPG, my ideas were more oriented to hybridize Pathfinder and 4e, but as classes in both systems are integral to the core I did not see how to modify without redoing many other things and this is how I end up doing this.

Hey there U_K

It was never my intention to create a new RPG, my ideas were more oriented to hybridize Pathfinder and 4e, but as classes in both systems are integral to the core among other things, I did not see how to modify without redoing many other things and this is how I end up doing this.

I would like to mention that another source of inspiration, as implausible as it sounds, was E6 more specifically EX adapted for E20 as an alternative to standard ELH.

Next I will present part of what is gained at levels.
At every level you gain 20 class builder points (I know is not the more exciting name), and here is some stuff in what you can spend it.

Point cost - Benefit

1 - Increment 1d6 to hit points + con mod
2 - Increment 1d8 to hit points + con mod
3 - Increment 1d10 to hit points + con mod
4 - Increment 1d12 to hit points + con mod

1 - 2 skill points + int mod
2 - 4 skill points + int mod
3 - 6 skill points + int mod
4 - 8 skill points + int mod

1 - AC +1
1 - Fortitude save +1
1 - Reflexes save +1
1 - Will save +1

1 - Melee attack +1
1 - Ranged attack +1
1 - Mental Special attack +1 (this is like the DC to resist spell when are based on mental scores)
1 - Physical Special attack +1 (same as above but based on physical scores)

Some rules, you can't have a bonus higher than you're level, for example if you are level 20 you're maximum melee bonus you can have is 20.
Optional, if you don't want to customize you're character so much you can opt to just add half you're level, this is very useful to create NPC or even monsters (I'm still a little blocked with monsters).
Some considerations, what I don't like of this is that it can be very difficult to keep track.
The rest of the points are to buy abilities.

Here I present another alternative that occurred to me and in some ways is just a modification that I did to EX.

There is no more levels although there is ECL. You spend XP in order to buy abilities, abilities cost 1000 XP, for every 5 abilities you have you're ECL increase +1.

This are some of the basic abilities that can be purchased and as in previous post still need to add the class feature abilities.

Attack - Gain a +1 bonus on all attacks.
Defense - Gain a +1 bonus to AC.
Saves - Gain a +1 bonus on all saves.
Special Attack - Gain a +1 bonus on all DCs to resist you're abilities.
Feat - Gain a bonus feat.
Strength - The character’s Strength increases by 1 point.
Dexterity - The character’s Dexterity increases by 1 point.
Constitution - The character’s Constitution increases by 1 point.
Intelligence - The character’s Intelligence increases by 1 point.
Wisdom - The character’s Wisdom increases by 1 point.
Charisma - The character’s Charisma increases by 1 point.
HP - The character gains +10 hit points. The character still add his/her con modifier to HP for every ECL his/her has.
Skill - The character gains +10 skill points. The character still add his/her int modifier to Skills for every ECL his/her has.

This will need a different XP progression something like: Encounter with ECL=CR equals to 100 XP, for every unit drop to CR equals to -20 XP, for every unit increase to CR equals to +20 XP.

eduar said:

Hey there U_K

Click to expand...

Howdy eduar amigo!

ENWorld was 'down' last night when I tried to reply.

It was never my intention to create a new RPG, my ideas were more oriented to hybridize Pathfinder and 4e, but as classes in both systems are integral to the core among other things, I did not see how to modify without redoing many other things and this is how I end up doing this.

Click to expand...

Couldn't you just compile a list of what you think each RPG does better than the other and then use those bits?

Hey there U_K

Of course I can, actually that is how this started, in combination with high level play.

Let me see, this is what I like:

3.5 is the game that I know more and better, therefore somehow is the basis of this. It has a lot of options to customize anything.
4e, I like how simple it is, just add one half your level plus ability modifier and a roll. Fix the balance issues between classes. Is super easy create new monsters. Alignment.
I remember once I read that 3.5 was the best system to be a player but 4e was the best to be GM.
Pathfinder fixed several problems of 3.5, like skills, no more XP costs, special attaks like bull rush, actually the core book is my favorite.
Immortals Handbook, the math transparency, divinity as a template with a progression separate from XP, and of course the super high level stuff.

And this is what I don't like:
3.5 can be very painful to GM specially at high levels, the problems with math because base attack and base saves. Vancian system (Class feature abilities with times per day counts as vancian for me). Some builds need multiclassing or create a new base class.
4e is just too bland for me and have the strong cap level. Vancian system. There is not enough class differentiation. Magic Item creation.
Pathfinder still have the same issues of 3.5.
Immortals Handbook, some math problems like SR and integrated class feauture based on HD instead of CR. Is incomplete.
Many of these ideas, if not all and more, have been mentioned for DnD Next but when I saw them in the playtest I was totally disappointed, they are not implemented in the way I expected, actually classes appear designed to just ten levels, and truth I cannot avoid a certain trend in the reduction level in each new edition, just look at Deities and Demigods from 1ADnD and the one of 3e and in 4e not even appear.

Summarizing objectives are:
support any level of game,
math transparency and consistency
simple but customizable options
point based abilities (or something better than vancian)
to be fun to play
there are probably others things that I'm forgetting at the moment, these are the ones I can summarize for now.
Tell me U_K when you designed IH what was the problems with 3.5, what would you change in order to suit your material?

eduar said:

Hey there U_K

Click to expand...

Hey eduar amigo!

there are probably others things that I'm forgetting at the moment, these are the ones I can summarize for now.

Click to expand...

Thats quite a few.

Tell me U_K when you designed IH what was the problems with 3.5, what would you change in order to suit your material?

Click to expand...

For me, the main problem with 3.5 was the EVER-SPIRALLING (out of control) complexity. It was just CRUSHING for GMs (and us poor game designers). It just simply had too many parts.

So my main goal was to cut that down where possible. Limit the number of magic items/artifacts. Dovetail skills with things like Omnicompetence and Maven. Reduce the number of feats by allowing a trade-up to divine abilities (and likewise cosmic and so on). At a certain level of divinity everyone gets Wish, cutting down on Spell-like abilities.