Conditions and Spellcasting Levels; What Condition Will Go With What Spellcasting Level?

Oversquid · May 24, 2013

So I've been looking at making a lot of my own abilities, and I've hit a rut. I mean, I'm able to intuit which conditions should go with each spell level, but for now, I'm in need of something more than my intuition.

So for the sake of this question, lets assume the following for the Spells:

Components: Verbal and Somatic. Material and Focus are extras for the sake of this spell, whatever it is.
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft/2 Levels) (Can also affect the Caster)
Target: 1 Creature
Duration: 1 Round/Level (Unless the condition is instantaneous, like Death. Unless you want to represent Death as a short time sort of deal, which could be an interesting effect, and I'm curious as to its look.)
Saving Throw: 1 Single Saving Throw
Spell Resistance: Yes

The question here would be the Spell's Level per every condition listed below:

1. Ability Damage (With this one, whats the minimum spell level within the above spell conditions that can deal 1 point of Ability Damage?)
2. Ability Drain (With this one, whats the minimum spell level within the above spell conditions that can deal 1 point of Ability Drain?)
3. Blinding
4. Blown Away
5. Checked
6. Confusion
7. Cowering
8. Daze
9. Dazzling
10. Death
11. Deafening
12. Disabling
13. Dying
14. Energy Drain (With this one, whats the minimum spell level within the above spell conditions that can grant 1 Negative Level?)
15. Entangling
16. Exhausted
17. Fascinated
18. Fatigued
19. Flat-Footed
20. Frightened
21. Grappled (Let this Grappling require a Saving Throw against the Spell DC to break out of.)
22. Helplessness
23. Incorporality
24. Invisibility
25. Knocked Down
26. Nauseated
27. Panicked
28. Paralysis
29. Petrified
30. Pinned (Let the Pinning require a Saving Throw against the Spell DC to break out of.)
31. Prone
32. Shaken
33. Sickened
34. Stabilize
35. Stagger
36. Stun
37. Turn
38. Unconsciousness.

What I gave you was the list I found in the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm

Some of those conditions, I realize, aren't really on any spell, but I'm still asking for what spell level they would be at if they were a spell within the defined parameters I stated above.

As a bonus, give an explanation as to why you put a condition in the spell level you did.

Thanks guys!

Ahnehnois · May 25, 2013

First off, you've set conditions that are essentially similar to Finger of Death. The Finger is a 7th level spell, so I think that's a sensible benchmark. It's a classic, but reasonably balanced. That would suggest to me that nothing would be 8th or 9th in the scenario you've described. With that in mind.

1. Ability Damage (With this one, whats the minimum spell level within the above spell conditions that can deal 1 point of Ability Damage?)
Probably 1st. 1 point of ability damage is unlikely to affect the outcome of a battle. Also, I think there is an example in the BoVD.

2. Ability Drain (With this one, whats the minimum spell level within the above spell conditions that can deal 1 point of Ability Drain?)
From a short-term tactical perspective, this is no different. From a long-term perspective, this is really problematic. I'd say 3rd level, because that's a big turning point for the usefulness of magic.

3. Blinding
1st level. The Blindness/Deafness spell is permanent and is 2nd level, therefore a short duration spell should be a level lower.

4. Blown Away
Probably 3rd level. Gust of Wind is level 2.

5. Checked
2nd level. Similar enough to GoW.

6. Confusion
2nd level. The parameters given place this spell in between the Confusion and Lesser Confusion spells (levels 3 and 1) in terms of power.

7. Cowering
A nasty disabling effect. I'd say 3rd level. Hold Person is a 3rd level (Sorc/Wiz) spell, and has a slightly more powerful effect, but allows a save every round. I'd say a cowering spell is slightly more powerful. A very strong 3rd.

8. Daze
2nd level. The Daze cantrip is similar, but has a duration of 1 round and an HD limit. I think removing both of those takes us to 2nd (similar to confusion in power; more disabling but no potential of deranged action).

9. Dazzling
0 level. This is pretty close to Flare, except it's a round a level instead of 1 minute.

10. Death
7th, per above.

11. Deafening
1st, as with blindness.

12. Disabling
What's that spell that makes you think you're disabled? I'd say 2nd, maybe 3rd.

13. Dying
If death is 7th, I guess dying is 6th.

14. Energy Drain (With this one, whats the minimum spell level within the above spell conditions that can grant 1 Negative Level?)
4th. This is close to Enervation; which is 1d4 neg levels and a touch attack instead of a save. These parameters make the spell less powerful, but not enough to make it 3rd, IMO.

15. Entangling
1st. Less powerful than Entangle the spell, but not a cantrip.

16. Exhausted
I'm saying 2nd. Ray of Exhaustion is 3rd, but this example completely negates the effect on a save (where RoE is fort partial, still fatigued on success). Also the ray has a longer duration. And I think exhaustion is pretty close to blindness and deafness.

17. Fascinated
2nd. Pretty disabling, but easily negated by combat/danger. Similar in usefulness to Hypnotic Pattern,

18. Fatigued
1st level. If exhaustion is 2nd.

19. Flat-Footed
2nd level. I believe there are SC examples along this line. Being flat-footed for 1 round/level can really be taken advantage of.

20. Frightened
I'm saying 2nd. Pretty disabling and exposes you to a lot of harm.

21. Grappled (Let this Grappling require a Saving Throw against the Spell DC to break out of.)
I think 2nd is reasonable. That kelp arms spell is 2nd I think.

22. Helplessness
Basically leads to your death. 5th, IMO. 2 steps below death.

23. Incorporality
Probably 6th. Extremely useful for defense and transportation.

24. Invisibility
2nd. I don't think the duration decrease/range increase is enough to change levels from Invisibility the spell.

25. Knocked Down
3nd level. If it keeps you down for 1 round/level, that's nasty.

26. Nauseated
3rd level. Disabling, but doesn't immediately get you killed.

27. Panicked
3rd level. Fear is 4th, and it affects an area. This is a pretty nasty effect, but does generally leave the character alive.

28. Paralysis
5th. Basically death. Hold Person is 3rd, but allows a save every round. Big difference.

29. Petrified
4th. Flesh to Stone is permanent, and is level 6. 1 round/level is not nearly as bad. Destroying an object with 8 hardness within 1 round-level is hard, so it's more disabling than lethal.

30. Pinned (Let the Pinning require a Saving Throw against the Spell DC to break out of.)
4th. Almost as bad as helpless, but not quite.

31. Prone
3rd level. If you're stuck prone, you ability to move and attack and defend is severely compromised.

32. Shaken
1st. Slightly better than Cause Fear, but not much.

33. Sickened
1st. Basically similar to shaken.

34. Stabilize
0 level. It it only lasts a round a level, it's less powerful than Cure Minor.

35. Stagger
2nd. Annoying, but not lethal.

36. Stun
4th. Pretty much makes you a sitting duck for 1 round/level.

37. Turn
2nd. Pretty much like being frightened.

38. Unconsciousness.
5th. As good as dead, but not actually dead.

EDIT: Are we talking about only being dead for 1 round/level? Because that would be weird. If you die for a minute and come back to life, that's more like a Maze spell (which is 8th but has no save).

Oversquid · May 25, 2013

Ahnehnois said:
First off, you've set conditions that are essentially similar to Finger of Death. The Finger is a 7th level spell, so I think that's a sensible benchmark. It's a classic, but reasonably balanced. That would suggest to me that nothing would be 8th or 9th in the scenario you've described. With that in mind.

1. Ability Damage (With this one, whats the minimum spell level within the above spell conditions that can deal 1 point of Ability Damage?)
Probably 1st. 1 point of ability damage is unlikely to affect the outcome of a battle. Also, I think there is an example in the BoVD.

2. Ability Drain (With this one, whats the minimum spell level within the above spell conditions that can deal 1 point of Ability Drain?)
From a short-term tactical perspective, this is no different. From a long-term perspective, this is really problematic. I'd say 3rd level, because that's a big turning point for the usefulness of magic.

3. Blinding
1st level. The Blindness/Deafness spell is permanent and is 2nd level, therefore a short duration spell should be a level lower.

4. Blown Away
Probably 3rd level. Gust of Wind is level 2.

5. Checked
2nd level. Similar enough to GoW.

6. Confusion
2nd level. The parameters given place this spell in between the Confusion and Lesser Confusion spells (levels 3 and 1) in terms of power.

7. Cowering
A nasty disabling effect. I'd say 3rd level. Hold Person is a 3rd level (Sorc/Wiz) spell, and has a slightly more powerful effect, but allows a save every round. I'd say a cowering spell is slightly more powerful. A very strong 3rd.

8. Daze
2nd level. The Daze cantrip is similar, but has a duration of 1 round and an HD limit. I think removing both of those takes us to 2nd (similar to confusion in power; more disabling but no potential of deranged action).

9. Dazzling
0 level. This is pretty close to Flare, except it's a round a level instead of 1 minute.

10. Death
7th, per above.

11. Deafening
1st, as with blindness.

12. Disabling
What's that spell that makes you think you're disabled? I'd say 2nd, maybe 3rd.

13. Dying
If death is 7th, I guess dying is 6th.

14. Energy Drain (With this one, whats the minimum spell level within the above spell conditions that can grant 1 Negative Level?)
4th. This is close to Enervation; which is 1d4 neg levels and a touch attack instead of a save. These parameters make the spell less powerful, but not enough to make it 3rd, IMO.

15. Entangling
1st. Less powerful than Entangle the spell, but not a cantrip.

16. Exhausted
I'm saying 2nd. Ray of Exhaustion is 3rd, but this example completely negates the effect on a save (where RoE is fort partial, still fatigued on success). Also the ray has a longer duration. And I think exhaustion is pretty close to blindness and deafness.

17. Fascinated
2nd. Pretty disabling, but easily negated by combat/danger. Similar in usefulness to Hypnotic Pattern,

18. Fatigued
1st level. If exhaustion is 2nd.

19. Flat-Footed
2nd level. I believe there are SC examples along this line. Being flat-footed for 1 round/level can really be taken advantage of.

20. Frightened
I'm saying 2nd. Pretty disabling and exposes you to a lot of harm.

21. Grappled (Let this Grappling require a Saving Throw against the Spell DC to break out of.)
I think 2nd is reasonable. That kelp arms spell is 2nd I think.

22. Helplessness
Basically leads to your death. 5th, IMO. 2 steps below death.

23. Incorporality
Probably 6th. Extremely useful for defense and transportation.

24. Invisibility
2nd. I don't think the duration decrease/range increase is enough to change levels from Invisibility the spell.

25. Knocked Down
3nd level. If it keeps you down for 1 round/level, that's nasty.

26. Nauseated
3rd level. Disabling, but doesn't immediately get you killed.

27. Panicked
3rd level. Fear is 4th, and it affects an area. This is a pretty nasty effect, but does generally leave the character alive.

28. Paralysis
5th. Basically death. Hold Person is 3rd, but allows a save every round. Big difference.

29. Petrified
4th. Flesh to Stone is permanent, and is level 6. 1 round/level is not nearly as bad. Destroying an object with 8 hardness within 1 round-level is hard, so it's more disabling than lethal.

30. Pinned (Let the Pinning require a Saving Throw against the Spell DC to break out of.)
4th. Almost as bad as helpless, but not quite.

31. Prone
3rd level. If you're stuck prone, you ability to move and attack and defend is severely compromised.

32. Shaken
1st. Slightly better than Cause Fear, but not much.

33. Sickened
1st. Basically similar to shaken.

34. Stabilize
0 level. It it only lasts a round a level, it's less powerful than Cure Minor.

35. Stagger
2nd. Annoying, but not lethal.

36. Stun
4th. Pretty much makes you a sitting duck for 1 round/level.

37. Turn
2nd. Pretty much like being frightened.

38. Unconsciousness.
5th. As good as dead, but not actually dead.

EDIT: Are we talking about only being dead for 1 round/level? Because that would be weird. If you die for a minute and come back to life, that's more like a Maze spell (which is 8th but has no save).

I appreciate the organized response!

Anyone else have a response to my question? I don't mind second opinions!

Greenfield · May 25, 2013

Okay, Ability drain and damage aren't the same, even on the short term tactical level. Drains don't stack, and damage does. Since I can and will use the same effects more than once in a battle, this is a serious difference.

The idea that Unconscious (as in Sleep) is a 5th level effect? Sorry, not buying it. Consider the difference between Sleep, which can be awakened with minimal effort, v Deeper Slumber, a 3rd level spell that can't be awakened until the spell duration is done. Completely different classes of "unconscious".

Also remember that because of the ways Saving Throws work, tying certain effects to higher spell levels actually makes them more powerful.

Ahnehnois · May 25, 2013

Greenfield said:
Drains don't stack

Say what? That just isn't true. Enhancement penalties like Ray of Enfeeblement don't stack; maybe that's what you're thinking. Ability drain is a form of damage. It stacks. It can reduce you to 0.

Also remember that because of the ways Saving Throws work, tying certain effects to higher spell levels actually makes them more powerful.

If you want to, you can heighten a spell, or pick a spell at your highest level that has a lower level effect but has favorable attributes (more targets, save doesn't negate, longer duration/range).

The idea that Unconscious (as in Sleep) is a 5th level effect? Sorry, not buying it. Consider the difference between Sleep, which can be awakened with minimal effort, v Deeper Slumber, a 3rd level spell that can't be awakened until the spell duration is done. Completely different classes of "unconscious".

My interpretation was that this was for a spell that makes you unconscious for 1 round a level, and you cannot be woken up by any method. That's how I read the OP. You're right that the ease of awakening sure makes a difference.

steenan · May 25, 2013

0:
- Dazzling
- Stabilize
1:
- Ability Damage (1 point) - This definitely scales in level with amount of damage done and d6 would be 2nd at least.
- Checked
- Deafening - A minor complication only.
- Entangling
- Fatigued
- Shaken
- Sickened
2:
- Confusion
- Exhausted
- Fascinated
- Flat-Footed
- Grappled
- Knocked Down (if it's instantaneous; if it keeps down for many rounds, then 4th)
- Prone (as above)
- Stagger
3:
- Ability Drain - Because of difficulty of recovery, not tactical effect.
- Blinding
- Blown Away
- Disabling
- Energy Drain
- Frightened
- Invisibility
- Turn
4:
- Daze
- Nauseated
- Panicked
5:
- Cowering
- Incorporality
- Petrified
- Pinned
- Stun
6:
- Helplessness
- Paralysis
- Unconsciousness (if it keeps unconscious for many rounds)
7:
- Dying

Other:
- Death - No save-or-die effects, please. On the other hand, could be as low as 5 if it was a gradual effect or if it had a HP threshold.

delericho · May 26, 2013

In general, a condition becomes common at about the same character level (no spellcasting level) at which a single-class Cleric can remove it - albeit possibly at some cost (as with restoration). Spells to cause conditions generally become available to at least one other casting class at the same character level* as the cleric can remove them.

Of course, the correlation is not perfect. But it is reasonably good - the Cleric gets remove blindness/deafness as a 2nd level spell; the Wizard gets blindness/deafness as a 2nd level spell. (Actually, so does the Cleric, but never mind...)

* This distinction is quite important - note that Assassins and Paladins get access to lower spell levels at higher character levels; as such, some 4th level Assassin spells are more powerful than 4th level Cleric spells.

Conditions and Spellcasting Levels; What Condition Will Go With What Spellcasting Level?

Oversquid

First Post

Ahnehnois

First Post

Oversquid

First Post

Greenfield

Adventurer

Ahnehnois

First Post

steenan

Adventurer

delericho

Legend

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