D&D 5E [Guidance] What, +1d4 to every check ever?

CapnZapp · Jul 2, 2019

Being able to get +2.5 on anything anytime has a huge impact on play.

MUCH more than killing some random monster.

It would be much better to make it a 1st level spell, so it couldn't be spammed. Even if the bonus would also be increased.

Guidance is too close to a static bonus. The game doesn't need them - it is easy as it is.

Much more fun in having discrete bonuses that you choose to use only on select few encounters.

Hussar · Jul 2, 2019

CapnZapp said:
Being able to get +2.5 on anything anytime has a huge impact on play.

MUCH more than killing some random monster.

It would be much better to make it a 1st level spell, so it couldn't be spammed. Even if the bonus would also be increased.

Guidance is too close to a static bonus. The game doesn't need them - it is easy as it is.

Much more fun in having discrete bonuses that you choose to use only on select few encounters.

But, that's the point I've made already. "Huge impact"? Really? Succeeding 1 in 8 more times than you would without the spell? How is that a "huge impact"?

I'm seeing lots of theorycrafting and very, very little actual evidence.

And, I'd point out that other than this thread, which was necro'd, this has been a virtual non-issue for the past five years. If it has such a massive impact, why aren't there numerous Agony Aunt type posts complaining about it?

Stalker0 · Jul 2, 2019

Hussar said:
How often does it make the difference on a skill check? How much impact is it actually having, not, how much do you feel it has.

We already know the math on how much it impacts the roll, all tracking that would do is lead to biases due to a limited roll set. If I had a game where guidance happened to push every single skill roll over the dc, that’s just a lucky night, not proof that the spell is op, and the opposite is also true.

I’d say the better tracking is, how often does a skill check have greater consequence than an attack roll or saving throw? I’m assuming that people think a +2.5 to either of those is pretty good. So if s skill check is often as impactful, than the bonus has to be considered in the same light.

CapnZapp · Jul 2, 2019

Hussar said:
But, that's the point I've made already. "Huge impact"? Really? Succeeding 1 in 8 more times than you would without the spell? How is that a "huge impact"?

I'm seeing lots of theorycrafting and very, very little actual evidence.

And, I'd point out that other than this thread, which was necro'd, this has been a virtual non-issue for the past five years. If it has such a massive impact, why aren't there numerous Agony Aunt type posts complaining about it?

The problem with that is that it enables me to argue there's little difference between a +2 proficiency bonus and a +6 one.

Each +1 bonus matters. When you have players that minmax well, guidance is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

1/8 is not trivial.

CapnZapp · Jul 2, 2019

Stalker0 said:
I’d say the better tracking is, how often does a skill check have greater consequence than an attack roll or saving throw? I’m assuming that people think a +2.5 to either of those is pretty good. So if s skill check is often as impactful, than the bonus has to be considered in the same light.

No.

The only real cost of Guidance is its cost in the action economy. During combat this cost (=making a Cleric, an otherwise very capable character do nothing else) is actually quite significant and I have zero problems with the cantrip.

Outside of combat, however, this cost approaches zero, which highlights the real issue: your ability to spam the cantrip endlessly.

In short, a cantrip that makes the party easily one level better, is an unwelcome addition to the game. Also, it being free means there's never any good reason for the Cleric to deny its casting. This is not a balance issue, but something I still dislike. (Had there been even a 1-in-20 risk of something bad/inconvenient happening it would help a lot)

Sacrosanct · Jul 2, 2019

Reynard said:
In the rulebook, verbal components must be "chanted" which implies, IMO, something that cannot be whispered. .

Great. Now I’m picturing spell casters casting spell in their best Al Pacino voice

WaterRabbit · Jul 2, 2019

This is kind of the problem with all at-will cantrips that have a valuable use outside of combat. If it becomes too much of a problem, have something like the cantrip can be used 3+Con Mod before having to start rolling for Exhaustion. (DC 10, just like the chase rules). This will limit spamming but still provide enough uses for a normal group and also give a mechanic for those that want to push it.

Just look at a cantrip like Move Earth. A character can in one hour move 3,000 5' cubes of dirt == 375,000 cubic feet. Seems a little silly. A frontend loader only move about 15-20 cubic feet depending on its size and certainly takes longer than 6 seconds to do so.

jasper · Jul 2, 2019

...Move Earth. A character can in one hour move 3,000 5' cubes of dirt == 375,000 cubic feet. Seems a little silly.... WHY DON'T ISEE A 5 ' HOLE MR COOL HAND wATERRABBIT, screamedBoss Godfrey
... Move Earth... WHY DO I SEE 5 ' HOLE MR COOL HAND wATERRABBIT IN MY YARD, screamed Boss Paul
****
...Also, it being free means there's never any good reason for the Cleric to deny its casting......
WHAT! you put sugar in your grits! No Guidance for you!
WHAT! You are a Pepsi drinker. No Guidance for you!

Hussar · Jul 2, 2019

CapnZapp said:
The problem with that is that it enables me to argue there's little difference between a +2 proficiency bonus and a +6 one.

Each +1 bonus matters. When you have players that minmax well, guidance is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

1/8 is not trivial.

Well, no. A +6 would change the success rate from 1/8 to 3/8 - a tripling of success rates due to the bonus. Something that bumps almost half of your failures into successes is a major change.

Something that bumps one failure out of eight into a success isn't going to have a whole lot of impact on the game, especially when a single character is unlikely to make more than about 8 skill checks in a given session. A +2 attack does have a larger impact simply because the player makes so many more attack rolls than skill checks.

That's why I talk about tracking the impact. Because we don't really know how often a character is making a skill check in a given session and how often that that skill check succeeds because of a bonus d4. You'd need to track over several sessions, across a number of characters, but, I would hazard a guess that the impact of Guidance is far, far from game breaking.

jasper · Jul 3, 2019

teacher! Teacher! Hussar is assigning home work assignments again. And it has to with Sadistics.

D&D 5E [Guidance] What, +1d4 to every check ever?

CapnZapp

Legend

Hussar

Legend

Stalker0

Legend

CapnZapp

Legend

CapnZapp

Legend

Sacrosanct

Legend

WaterRabbit

Explorer

jasper

Rotten DM

Hussar

Legend

jasper

Rotten DM

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