5E fifth edition release schedule ... cart before the horse? - Page 4
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  1. #31
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    Re: homebrew. I don't care if someone likes or dislikes homebrew. I'd just ask that it not be compared to fanfiction. Fanfiction is inherently derivative, whereas when it comes to D&D worlds, homebrew came first. Before there were any official campaign settings or even any published adventures, there was homebrew. It's how the game was intended to be played.

    Regarding the release. I'm not sure how a staggered release over the course of five months could be considered "rushed". It's certainly multi-staged, but they have demonstrated a clear plan for allowing groups to play without needing all three of the PHB, MM, and DMG. I'm playing or running three different games using two different published adventures. If I want to go homebrew, I've got 218 monsters without spending a dime on the Monster Manual. I'm wallowing in D&D without even the MM or the DMG.

  2. #32
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    Come on @TerraDave, it isn't ten threads, its more like seven.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selkirk View Post
    i'm a huge fan of 5e dungeons and dragons but am i the only one feeling that the release schedule is a bit...slow . and i'm not talking about dmg specifically (im a player not a dm so the dmg isn't a must). but i am wondering where are the modules?
    Adventure design is tough. It's very easy to write bad adventures, and it's very difficult to write good adventures. Not only that, but trying to write an adventure for a system that isn't finished yet? Now, *that's* tough! Just ask Steve Winter and Wolfgang Baur.

    Wizards are, at this stage, releasing two types of adventure. The first type are the big storyline adventures (Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Rise of Tiamat), which are used as part of their multimedia story-telling strategy. The second type are the small, organised play adventures seen in D&D Expeditions. At present, there are six of those adventures available, albeit only to those with stores participating in the program or who go to conventions.

    Given Wizards are stepping back from producing a lot of D&D material, it seems likely that we'll be a lot more dependent on third-party publishers for adventure material, especially if Wizards produce a license that allows this to occur. (Given the current state of affairs, I think that very, very likely). Even prior to that occurring, I count eleven titles in that category at present. Not all of those titles are good - many are a fair way from that status.

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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iosue View Post
    Re: homebrew. I don't care if someone likes or dislikes homebrew. I'd just ask that it not be compared to fanfiction. Fanfiction is inherently derivative, whereas when it comes to D&D worlds, homebrew came first. Before there were any official campaign settings or even any published adventures, there was homebrew. It's how the game was intended to be played.
    That's only true from a very limited point of view. In truth the very nature of the RPG is derivative of war gaming, right down to how the terms 'hit points' and 'armor class' were lifted from a naval combat game (where they actually make a lot more sense.) And what of elves, dragons, etc, etc? All derivatives, I assure you. Heck five minutes on tvtropes is enough to reveal that we're all standing on someone else's shoulders in some way or another.

    As for 'how it was meant to be played' is starts simply with 'more depth than a wargame' and grows outward from there. I am not aware of any evidence that Gary, Dave, et al would never have purchased modules were they available.

  5. #35
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    A Dungeon magazine edited by someone on lease from Wizards would be good.

    Or perhaps a fan made magazine. Just somewhere to get scenarios and stuff that has passed through some sort of review.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henrix View Post
    A Dungeon magazine edited by someone on lease from Wizards would be good.

    Or perhaps a fan made magazine. Just somewhere to get scenarios and stuff that has passed through some sort of review.
    Fan done stuff tends to have serious issues unless someone's making a buck somewhere off of it.

    Trollzine, for example, is on editor #4... in 8 issues. The issues of layout, editing, and pasteup make for interesting challenges. Getting maps into an easily used and printed format also is a good bit of work. Unpaid volunteers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcbobbo View Post
    That's only true from a very limited point of view. In truth the very nature of the RPG is derivative of war gaming, right down to how the terms 'hit points' and 'armor class' were lifted from a naval combat game (where they actually make a lot more sense.) And what of elves, dragons, etc, etc? All derivatives, I assure you. Heck five minutes on tvtropes is enough to reveal that we're all standing on someone else's shoulders in some way or another.
    Yes, but that's not really germane to the point. I'm not saying derivative = bad. I'm simply saying fanfiction = inherently derivative, homebrew = not necessarily derivative (or any more derivative than official settings).

    As for 'how it was meant to be played' is starts simply with 'more depth than a wargame' and grows outward from there. I am not aware of any evidence that Gary, Dave, et al would never have purchased modules were they available.
    We have the "Afterward" of OD&D - "Why have us do any of your imagining for you?" We also have Gygax and Rob Kuntz on record as being perplexed when first presented with "Palace of the Vampire Queen" (the first module).

    I can't find the Gygax quote at the moment, but here's Rob Kuntz:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Kuntz
    The original game as envisioned saw the province of personalized creation on all levels as the only dominant purpose of the game as first play-tested, written, and promoted in commercial form.

    True historians of the gamethere are many pseudo-historians promoting their version, primarily as guess worknote very clearly that the products published in the immediate wake of D&D were supportive of this view as embodied in the authors philosophy, such as Dungeon Geomorphs, Outdoor Geomorphs, Monster & Treasure Assortments, Player- and Non-Player character record sheets, graph paper and hex paper assortments, and the promotion of a unifying periodical, The Strategic Review, wherein continued additions and refinements, such as optional/variant rules for the game, could see purchase just as they had done in the original Supplements to D&D.

    The philosophy/intent is clear as a clear sky at this point.

    The actual philosophical change occurs when someone, I forget whom, sent Gary Gygax a copy of a pre-made adventure, Palace of the Vampire Queen. Many of us looked at itI even picked up a copy for myself-- in a mode of perplexed inquiry. The majority of us were vocal about why anyone would want someone else creating things for them and their campaign worlds whereas all of the resources in primary and supportive categories were available to them to create their own material.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selkirk View Post
    the amount of official product for 5e is way too limited for my tastes-this 2 months after phb was released. take away hoard and you have a phb and mm. take away phb and you have hoard and mm...well you get my point.
    The thing is, you're missing the Starter Set. It's somewhat questionable to complain about a lack of published material if you're going to casually discount 25% of the available products!

    It's probably also worth noting that "Hoard of the Dragon Queen" is a pretty big adventure - half an Adventure Path, in fact. So it's closer to "Sunless Citadel" and "Forge of Fury" (and maybe "Speaker in Dreams") put together than to the first of these alone. It may still only count as one... but it's a big one.

    and following the logical assumption that if i bought phb i wouldn't then turn around and pay 20 bucks for lost mines...
    The Starter Set is well worth picking up for the adventure alone, especially for a group that finds itself short on adventure material. (And it's currently a bit over $15 on Amazon US, so an even better deal.)

    Now, the one thing I think 5e does feel the lack of is support from Dungeon. That's the thing that 3e and 4e had that 5e does not. (Those editions also had at least some third-party support via the OGL and/or GSL... but so does 5e.) I'm afraid there's no real answer to that - WotC just don't have the team to be putting together a monthly magazine right now, and producing that volume of adventure material in-house would be even more challenging (and, actually, the first 3e and 4e issues were mostly done in-house, because that's where they could find designers familiar with the rules). I think, though, that that would probably be true if they had delayed the release of the game by 6, 12, or 24 months - I suspect that's just the way things are now.

  9. #39
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    I admit, I don't know who Rob Kuntz even is, so you may have a point there.

    How's about this quote, though:

    " I can complete a mission in Mass Effect in about an hour and a half. So why cant I complete an adventure in D&D in that time? Why does it take me 4, 8, 12 hours just to get from page one of the adventure to the end? I mean, yeah, you can have huge epic adventures but I cant do it in less than four hours." - Mike Mearls

    It speaks to the value of time and the other things competing for our time. In this way homebrew is definitely not a winner. Any ideas that you don't have to develop yourself are a savings in time. Assuming that everyone who runs a game of D&D will decide to devote hours to development ultimately means a smaller customer base, as market research clearly shows.

    Point there is even if it somehow was the 'true way to play', they realize now they were wrong. Or at least times have changed.

    Back to the OP though, I think this quote I found answers your question, again going back to the research:

    " Instead of flooding the market with an endless tide of RPG books, were moving to diversify the business. We have two active MMOs, board games, miniatures, t-shirts, novels, and even more stuff were working on.

    In hindsight, its actually a fairly obvious move. Lets say you buy the three core rulebooks and then the two volumes of the Tyranny of Dragons campaign. That gives you everything you need for the next 6 to 12 months of gaming. Do I really have much of a chance to sell you more RPG stuff during that time? Why fight that battle?"

  10. #40
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    @Iosue It--home brew everything--was true in like 1974.

    Temple of the Frog was included in the Blackmoor booklet in 1975. They would then license or distribute adventures from 3rd parties (like Wee Warriors) and produce modules for tournements for the next few years.

    In 1978 B1 was released with Holmes Basic and the Gs and Ds and S1 Tomb of Horrors came out that same year. The floodgates had opened.

    Of course, it was expected that lots of DMs would not use these, and if they used them would use them in their own world. The idea of greyhawk as some kind of "canon" or "default" is something that comes years latter, especially as it is now understood.

    As for the whole "derivative" thing...everything is derivative of everything. But of course their are very creative homebrews...and just terrible published adventures. Plenty, along with the gems.

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