5E If WotC is outsourcing official 5E material to 3PP, What is WotC working on? - Page 12
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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hussar View Post
    I dunno, Storm King's Thunder seems pretty solidly in the AP mode. You have to defeat each giant type before progressing to the final destination. Same goes for Princes of the Apocolypse - why wouldn't that qualify?

    I guess I'm not seeing the issue here. A really big module is an Adventure Path - as opposed to a single adventure which is one and done.
    I'd call both of those mega-adventures (the kind that provides enough material for a whole campaign) rather than adventure paths. They're more akin to the older adventures like Night Below or Red Hand of Doom.

    I think the serialized nature, usually with very distinct steps, is important for something called an adventure path. You also have a storyline developing over the course of the path - it's not just "Here's a big problem, and here are steps A, B, C, and D you need to do to stop it" but "Here's problem A, which you need to fix. OK, now here's problem B that builds upon A, so you now need to fix that too. And after that you notice problem C which you also have to fix." and so on.

    Take Princes of the Apocalypse, for example. I'll put it in spoiler tags:
    Spoiler:
    The core plot is "Find the missing delegation", which quickly morphs into "Stop the elemental cultists." This goal takes you through what is essentially a 13-level dungeon (four Haunted Keeps, four Temples, the Fane of the Eye, and finally the four Nodes). You can basically do these in any order, even though you might then run into things that are more or less difficult than appropriate.

    Basically, you have a single goal that's handled in multiple stages, but you can do the stages in any order and the whole thing is clear at a fairly early point.

    But compare that with Curse of the Crimson Throne - see the link for short descriptions of the adventures. Each of these is a distinct adventure that builds upon what comes before. It's a path where each step leads to something new and building on what came before.

    Hoard of the Dragons is, I think, the closest Wizards have done to a "classic" Adventure Path for 5e. The adventure has a number of distinct steps, each building on the one before (village attacked, find out the source of the attack, stop that band, learn there's more going on, follow up on that, travel to Waterdeep, then into the Mere of Dead Men, and so on).
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  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Staffan View Post
    I'd call both of those mega-adventures (the kind that provides enough material for a whole campaign) rather than adventure paths. They're more akin to the older adventures like Night Below or Red Hand of Doom.

    I think the serialized nature, usually with very distinct steps, is important for something called an adventure path. You also have a storyline developing over the course of the path - it's not just "Here's a big problem, and here are steps A, B, C, and D you need to do to stop it" but "Here's problem A, which you need to fix. OK, now here's problem B that builds upon A, so you now need to fix that too. And after that you notice problem C which you also have to fix." and so on.

    Take Princes of the Apocalypse, for example. I'll put it in spoiler tags:
    Spoiler:
    The core plot is "Find the missing delegation", which quickly morphs into "Stop the elemental cultists." This goal takes you through what is essentially a 13-level dungeon (four Haunted Keeps, four Temples, the Fane of the Eye, and finally the four Nodes). You can basically do these in any order, even though you might then run into things that are more or less difficult than appropriate.

    Basically, you have a single goal that's handled in multiple stages, but you can do the stages in any order and the whole thing is clear at a fairly early point.

    But compare that with Curse of the Crimson Throne - see the link for short descriptions of the adventures. Each of these is a distinct adventure that builds upon what comes before. It's a path where each step leads to something new and building on what came before.

    Hoard of the Dragons is, I think, the closest Wizards have done to a "classic" Adventure Path for 5e. The adventure has a number of distinct steps, each building on the one before (village attacked, find out the source of the attack, stop that band, learn there's more going on, follow up on that, travel to Waterdeep, then into the Mere of Dead Men, and so on).
    To be fair it sounds like Ghosts of Saltmarsh is essentially an adventure path.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthia05718273 View Post
    I think what I'm trying to say is that although Wizard's has released books with common threads back-to-back, they haven't actually written anything that's actually that similar back-to-back. Dragon Heist and Ravnica are not the same book, and Storm King's doesn't equal the Yawning Portal, doesn't equal Tomb of Annihilation.

    That said, I don't think Dark Sun and DoD are equivalent either, especially as I believe Dark Sun will probably get a Wayfinder's Guide style release for testing anyway.

    Just curious, has anyone at WotC actually said they're planning on more module remakes soon? TftYP came out in 2017, Ghosts of Saltmarsh is coming out in 2019. I'm not expecting another "true remake" until 2021 at that pace.

    More likely, based upon the Stewart quote, I'm guessing the next AP in 2020 is something in either Calimshan, Zakhara, or Kara-tur.

    And just so people can make their guesses more clear;

    2015:
    2 APs (PotA, OotA), 1 setting book (SCAG).

    2016:
    2 APs (CoS, SKT), 1 crunch book (VGtM)

    2017:
    2 APs (TftYP, ToA), 1 crunch (XGtE)

    2018:
    2 APs (WDH, WDotMM), 1 crunch (MToF), 1 setting (GGtR), 1 setting PDF (WGtE)

    2019:
    2 APs (GoS, BGDiA), 1 setting (Eberron), 1 starter box.

    2020 will probably match the pattern of the past years, being 2 APs, 1 setting, 1 crunch book or starter box.
    No crutch book this year for me is a shocker, it's been a disappointing year for content honestly IMO. No MTOF style book, no VGTM style book, no XGTE style book, nothing.

    Hopefully it means they have something major planned for 2020.

    Well at least I have Odyssey of the Dragonlords to look forward too.

    Desert of Desolation would fit in with Nathan's statement too, it's Egyptian and Arab themed, maybe with some East Indian in there too with the Durpari, it's very Euro centric part of the realms. And I expect Kara Tur and Zakhara will require something broader then an AP, both are massive continents, especially Kara Tur. Two China's, two Japan's, a Korea, Tibet, Siberia, Indoneasia and Philippines, Cambodia, Vietnam, Hill Tribes, Mongolia, and some other explored regions. It gets bigger if you include the Utter East where the Bloodforge wars occurred.

  4. #114
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    To be fair, Ghosts of Salmarsh does actually have a considerable amount of crunch. There's a pretty hefty section on aquatic monsters and the rules for naval combat and running ships is pretty solid as well. I mean, the book is 256 pages long and the naval crunch stuff is about 60 pages long. Add in a fair chunk of new backgrounds and whatnot at the front of the book and there's a good solid 1/3 of the book being crunchy. I'm actually pretty impressed with that part.

    Less impressed with the art and the cartography, but, impressed with the content.
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  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Staffan View Post
    I'd call both of those mega-adventures (the kind that provides enough material for a whole campaign) rather than adventure paths. They're more akin to the older adventures like Night Below or Red Hand of Doom.
    I agree. Comparing running Princes of the Apocalypse to my Pathfinder APs, there is not a lot of resemblance.

    The APs are constructed as series of adventures which may in themselves be linear, site based, sandboxy etc. But you have to go 1-2-3 for the campaign to work. You do book 1 then book 2 then book 3 etc.
    PoTA is a sandboxy single mega-adventure
    that reminds me of running Lost City of Barakus.

    I bought Red Hand of Doom recently, it is fairly linear but is clearly a mega adventure or mini campaign (campaign adventure?), not a 'Path'.
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  6. #116
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    Should we be calling these modules instead of APs?

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by gyor View Post
    Should we be calling these modules instead of APs?
    Once I thought about it and looked, WotC just calls them "Adventures" in the copy.

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hussar View Post
    To be fair, Ghosts of Salmarsh does actually have a considerable amount of crunch. There's a pretty hefty section on aquatic monsters and the rules for naval combat and running ships is pretty solid as well. I mean, the book is 256 pages long and the naval crunch stuff is about 60 pages long. Add in a fair chunk of new backgrounds and whatnot at the front of the book and there's a good solid 1/3 of the book being crunchy. I'm actually pretty impressed with that part.

    Less impressed with the art and the cartography, but, impressed with the content.
    Yeah, and we don't know what the content of the November book will he, just the Setting. But I'd wager it is something like Ravnica, with player options and monsters of general utility.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parmandur View Post
    Yeah, and we don't know what the content of the November book will he, just the Setting. But I'd wager it is something like Ravnica, with player options and monsters of general utility.
    We already have the Player options in WGE.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by gyor View Post
    We already have the Player options in WGE.
    We have player options in WGtE: that doesn't mean that we have all of the potential player options that we may see in the new book. Additional races or subclasses are very, very possible.

    And we have none of the quite numerous Eberron specific monsters.

    I'll put down that we will see as much new crunch in this new book as Ravnica, maybe more.
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