D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

vonklaude said:

I don't really want to start another debate here on this point. Instead please refer to the probability distribution functions (the graphs) on page 35 of this thread http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?588010-Bladesinger-a-criticism-of-its-design/page35That should explain why Blur is worth your concentration slot. Not in every case, but in many cases.

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Using concentration to cast *any* purely defensive spell you plan to maintain during combat is very questionable for any class, but is especially questionable when the biggest knock on the class is the weak damage output. When the defensive boon only applies to attacks versus AC, and not to save spells, it drops even more in utility. If there were a spell that said, "All melee and ranged attacks miss you, Duration 1 minute (concentration)", I don't think I would take it on a BS. It needs the offensive bump far more than a defensive bump.

Most BS I see running around rely upon Shield and Mirror Image to avoid AC attacks. Neither requires concentration, and both can be utilized (like blur) without sacrificing a full action in combat. The combination turns away AC attacks very well - including negating some crits. *Blur is more efficient than mirror image*, but as it does not require concentration, the difference is acceptable. They tend to use their concentration for either a primarily offensive boost (Haste), or utility (Improved Invisibility, Flight, etc...), or offensive spell (Banishment, Hypnotic Pattern, etc...).

vonklaude:

I asked:

Treantmonklvl20 said:

If doing good damage doesn't matter, why are you swinging a sword (poorly) instead of casting spells?

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Your answer was: (I'm editorializing as your answer was wordy, I have attempted to keep your intended context, if I've failed to do so let me know)

vonklaude said:

If foe never moves, BS' ability to sustain melee against it all day with Blur is solid.

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I originally thought you meant "solid" damage, but you meant "solid" ability to sustain melee. This actually doesn't answer my question at all. You can sustain melee without using a rapier. Why use the rapier?

I also can't help myself, but you have called one minute "all day"...no, 10 rounds. Furthermore, you are assuming all damage requires a to hit roll, it doesn't, and your HP aren't good, and you've used your concentration to up your AC, not your resistances.

vonklaude said:

Alternatively, if tanked foe does move, they take the Booming Blade secondary and an Attack of Opportunity. At that point, damage becomes comparable to sword-and-board Battlemaster (who cannot sustain in melee the way BS can).

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(I need to comment here: Movement of an enemy may not be overly unusual, but movement alone does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You are describing a situation where an opponent chooses to provoke an attack of opportunity in addition to moving by moving away from the Bladesinger without disengaging. You are describing a situation which simply doesn't happen except in unusual circumstances.)

vonklaude said:

Haste+GFB is better against hordes, dealing slightly more damage than a sword-and-board Battlemaster

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Firstly, I reject comparison with a Sword and Board Battlemaster for two reasons. First reason is that comparing a BS to a non-caster isn't really fair, as the BS ability to tap the versitility and power of spellcasting is not accounted for. Secondly, a Battlemaster using sword and board is only partially a damage dealer, it is also knocking over opponents with shield, frightening them with menacing strike, etc. As I mentioned before, Cleric makes a far more apt comparison as a Cleric (like a BS) is only doing damage, and also has the versatility of spellcasting to fall back on.

That out of the way, words like "solid" and "comparable" are subjective terms. I'm about to put them to the test.

Let's take a few snapshots: levels 5, 10 and 15 and see how the BS shows "solid" damage and "comparable" damage.

Obviously, opponent AC and saving throws vary and this will impact results. I'm going to give a base 60% chance of hitting or landing a spell with a 16 ability score at level 5, 18 at level 10, and 20 at level 15.

I will also set a baseline. This will be done by statting out a REAL damage dealer - a character focused on doing damage, just to see what the upper ceiling is.

Just to keep the post from becoming too long (and because I can space it out between dinner etc), I will do each level comparison in a different post. I should get them all up today.

Level 5:

Our 3 examples include a Bladesinger (High Elf), a Knowledge Cleric (Wood Elf) and a Barbarian Berserker (Oh, let's go with a regular old non-variant human). All 3 will use standard stat array. At level 4 our spellcasters take feats (Warcaster for BS and Cleric) Barbarian will grab +2 str.

I will use the following abbreviations: Bladesinger - BS. Cleric - CL. Barbarian Berserker - BB.

Stats look like this:

BS: Str: 10, Dex: 16 (14+2), Con: 13, Int: 16 (15+1), Wis: 12, Cha: 8
CL: Str: 10, Dex: 14 (12+2), Con: 14, Int: 12, Wis: 16 (15+1), Cha: 8
BB: Str: 18 (15+1 +2), Dex: 14 (13+1), Con: 15 (14+1), Int: 9 (8+1), Wis: 13 (12+1), Cha: 11 (10+1)

Barbarian Berserker:
Let's start with our BB. Weapon is a two handed sword. BB is raging and reckless attacking. His chance to hit becomes 0.65, with advantage, that becomes 0.8775

(7 weapon damage + 4 strength bonus + 2 rage bonus) = 13 x 0.8775 (chance to hit) = 11.4075
+ Crit possibility (7 more weapon damage x 0.0975) = 0.6825

That's 12.09 per hit, x3 hits =
36.3 (rounded) damage per round.
I played with GWM and you can get it around 40, but I don't want to fill up the page with BB math - 36.3 is a good "high end" number..

Cleric
Now let's check out our Cleric. You might think a knowledge wood elf Cleric isn't really the ultimate melee Cleric, and you would be right. This is just a run of the mill Cleric with no real melee speciality. Let's see how they do.

The Cleric will be using Spirit Guardians, a Spiritual weapon and Sacred flame. He could use a weapon, but he wants to keep his hand free to flip the bird at the Bladesinger for not pulling his weight.

(13.5 spirit guardians damage x 0.60 chance of saving throw failure) = 8.1
(6.75 spirit guardians damage x 0.40 chance of saving throw success) = 2.7
(7.5 spiritual weapon damage x 0.60 chance of hit) = 4.5
(4.5 spiritual weapon crit extra damage x 0.05 chance of critical) = 0.225
(9 Sacred flame damage x 0.60 chance of saving throw failure) = 5.4 (no damage on successful save)

Total average damage per round: 20.9 (rounded)
That's not bad. Significantly lower than the BB, but 20.9 is respectable, especially for a character not built around melee damage.

Bladesinger
Now let's check our Bladesinger. He's using Booming Blade and Blur as you recommend against a single tough opponent. We will first try against an unmoving opponent. This should be "solid" damage I'm told. (Edit: It occurs to me re-reading your post is you report a "solid" ability to maintain melee, not "solid" damage...anyways, let's check out the damage)

(7.5 rapier damage + 4.5 booming blade damage x 0.60 chance of hit) = 7.2
(4.5 + 4.5 potential critical damage x 0.05 chance of critical) = 0.45

Total damage per round 7.7 (rounded). vonklaude, you and I have VASTLY differing views on what "solid" damage is. This represents 37% of the damage the CL does. This represents less than a quarter the damage of the BB. When you said that the damage would be 1/3-1/2 the damage of a martial character, I called that a "deal breaker", but it turns out, it's even worse.

OK, maybe if the opponent moves....

(7.5 rapier damage + 13.5 booming blade damage x 0.60 chance of hit) = 12.6
(Critical damage is unchanged) = 0.45

That's 13.1 average damage. IF the opponent moves. That's still not even close to on par with the Cleric.

Now the opponent could move and provoke an attack of opportunity, I just don't think that's going to happen frequently enough to do all the math (would need to do for all 3 characters)

Level 10:

At level 8 we are going to boost the Wisdom of the Cleric, the Dex of the Bladesinger (that's a painful pill to swallow, but you are swinging a sword), and Str of the Barbarian

Stats look like this:

BS: Str: 10, Dex: 18 (14+2+2), Con: 13, Int: 16 (15+1), Wis: 12, Cha: 8
CL: Str: 10, Dex: 14 (12+2), Con: 14, Int: 12, Wis: 18 (15+1+2), Cha: 8
BB: Str: 20 (15+1 +4), Dex: 14 (13+1), Con: 15 (14+1), Int: 9 (8+1), Wis: 13 (12+1), Cha: 11 (10+1)

Barbarian Berserker:
Let's start with our BB. Weapon is a two handed sword. BB is raging and reckless attacking. His chance to hit becomes 0.65, with advantage, that becomes 0.8775

(7 weapon damage + 5 strength bonus + 3 rage bonus) = 15 x 0.8775 (chance to hit) = 13.1625
+ Crit possibility (7 more weapon damage x 0.0975) = 0.6825

That's 13.825 per hit, x3 hits =
41.5 (rounded) damage per round.
I didn't try GWM at this level, but I assume it would be higher yet...anyways, 41.5 works for a quick and easy comparison number.


Cleric

The Cleric will be using Spirit Guardians (5th level), a Spiritual weapon (4th level) and Sacred flame. The free hand is used to wipe away the tears of laughter at the Bladesinger's disgraceful attempt to do damage.

(22.5 spirit guardians damage x 0.60 chance of saving throw failure) = 13.5
(11.25 spirit guardians damage x 0.40 chance of saving throw success) = 4.5
(13 spiritual weapon damage x 0.60 chance of hit) = 7.8
(9 spiritual weapon crit extra damage x 0.05 chance of critical) = 0.45
(9 Sacred flame damage x 0.60 chance of saving throw failure) = 5.4 (no damage on successful save)

Total average damage per round: 31.7 (rounded)
That's solid damage. Still well below the Barbarian, but the ratio of difference is declining. The Cleric can feel good about his contribution at 31.7 damage per round.

Bladesinger
Do we see improvement at this level? Let's find out. First against the unmoving opponent

(8.5 rapier damage + 4.5 booming blade damage x 0.60 chance of hit) = 7.8
(4.5 + 4.5 potential critical damage x 0.05 chance of critical) = 0.45

Total damage per round 8.3 (rounded). I've just decided I'm not doing level 15. This is a disgrace. It's pathetic. This is the kind of melee damage we would expect from a first level character. I rated this option "red", but it probably should be "brown". Am I missing something?

if the opponent moves....not expecting miracles at this point

(8.5 rapier damage + 13.5 booming blade damage x 0.60 chance of hit) = 13.2
(Critical damage is unchanged) = 0.45

That's 13.7 average damage. IF the opponent moves. 5 extra levels didn't even add up to a full point of damage.

We're done. This is disgusting. Blue? Are you kidding me?

So sum up:

vonklaude said:

Tanking...solid...effective...comparable

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You keep using these words. They do not mean what you think they mean.

The words you are looking for are: "lumping", "disgraceful", "impotent", and "laughable"

jgsugden said:

Using concentration to cast *any* purely defensive spell you plan to maintain during combat is very questionable for any class, but is especially questionable when the biggest knock on the class is the weak damage output. When the defensive boon only applies to attacks versus AC, and not to save spells, it drops even more in utility. If there were a spell that said, "All melee and ranged attacks miss you, Duration 1 minute (concentration)", I don't think I would take it on a BS. It needs the offensive bump far more than a defensive bump.

Most BS I see running around rely upon Shield and Mirror Image to avoid AC attacks. Neither requires concentration, and both can be utilized (like blur) without sacrificing a full action in combat. The combination turns away AC attacks very well - including negating some crits. *Blur is more efficient than mirror image*, but as it does not require concentration, the difference is acceptable. They tend to use their concentration for either a primarily offensive boost (Haste), or utility (Improved Invisibility, Flight, etc...), or offensive spell (Banishment, Hypnotic Pattern, etc...).

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This. We have a character that can't do damage, that is weak against save or take damage spells, is weak against area damage and has a great AC. Using your concentration and actions to shore up AC is beyond questionable, it is literally the last thing you need to worry about.

Bolares said:

This would make sense if there wasn't the natural 20 crit... Doesn't matter how good is your AC, there is always at least a 5% chance de attack will hit you, and then it will be nasty.

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This is not the vulnerability of the Bladesinger. The Bladesinger has low HP, so things like dragon breath or save or take damage spells, these are the vulnerability of the Bladesinger.

CapnZapp said:

https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/31/16581406/google-docs-error-terms-of-service-lock-out

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

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That could be the issue, though these people are reporting not being able to access their own files. I can access the file, I just can't share it.

Treantmonklvl20 said:

OK, maybe if the opponent moves....

(7.5 rapier damage + 13.5 booming blade damage x 0.60 chance of hit) = 12.6
(Critical damage is unchanged) = 0.45

That's 13.1 average damage. IF the opponent moves. That's still not even close to on par with the Cleric.

Now the opponent could move and provoke an attack of opportunity, I just don't think that's going to happen frequently enough to do all the math (would need to do for all 3 characters)

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We say "maybe if opponent moves" but then do not add the AoO damage for opponent moving. Foe is either not moving and being tanked successfully, or they are moving? If they are moving, why are we ignoring the AoO?

Treantmonklvl20 said:

BS: Str: 10, Dex: 16 (14+2), Con: 13, Int: 16 (15+1), Wis: 12, Cha: 8

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BS spends their ASI on Dexterity, so has 14+2+2 = 18 on that.

Weapon 4.5 + Dexterity 4 + BB primary 4.5 + BB secondary 9 = 22 * .65 = 14.3
AoO Weapon 4.5 + Dexterity 4 = 8.5 * .65 = 5.2
= 19.5 damage if opponent moves

We have GWM doing 36 in a single-pristine-encounter (please see my next post), but recall that my claim is that if foe is moving then BB is dealing damage comparable to sword-and-board Battlemaster. GWM rightly remains king of spiking melee-weapon damage. How many times are we saying Frenzy BB is Raging, Reckless Attacking, and using Frenzy per "adventuring day"?

Preamble: unpacking your estimates wasn't straightforward. There are lots of elements.

Treantmonklvl20 said:

BB: Str: 18 (15+1 +2), Dex: 14 (13+1), Con: 15 (14+1), Int: 9 (8+1), Wis: 13 (12+1), Cha: 11 (10+1)

Barbarian Berserker:
Let's start with our BB. Weapon is a two handed sword. BB is raging and reckless attacking. His chance to hit becomes 0.65, with advantage, that becomes 0.8775

(7 weapon damage + 4 strength bonus + 2 rage bonus) = 13 x 0.8775 (chance to hit) = 11.4075
+ Crit possibility (7 more weapon damage x 0.0975) = 0.6825

That's 12.09 per hit, x3 hits =
36.3 (rounded) damage per round.

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At 5th level they must have either GWM and 16 Strength, or no GWM and 18. We are giving BB three attacks per round. For GWM BB one of those attacks is conditioned on a critical hit or kill. Elsewhere (I cannot find the thread right now) we were able to calculate that probability at about 43%. What foe AC is assumed? I've been using 15. For no-GWM BB we can sustain use of Frenzy once per day.

• For GWM BB we have 7 weapon + 3 strength + 2 rage + 10 power-attack = 22 * ~0.58 = ~12.71 * 2.43 = ~31 + critical bonus damage
• For Frenzy BB (is that what you are assuming for the third attack?) we have 7 weapon + 4 strength + 2 rage = 13 * ~.88 *3 = ~34 + critical bonus damage

That looks overwhelming in the isolation of a single pristine encounter with no attacks back. We're exhausted at the end of that encounter, and all through we took attacks against us with Advantage. At 5th we can achieve this 3 times per day. After that time we're at 3 levels of Exhaustion. So the "single-pristine-encounter" damage shown here isn't a fair representation.

A big difference between our estimating methods is that I take into account depletion of such resources. Are we assuming a long-rest after every encounter? If not, what do you feel a reasonable number of encounters assumption per "adventuring day" is? Illustratively, if a "day" is 6 encounters long, with 2 short rests, and we always Reckless Attack, Rage our maximum of 3 times, and Frenzy once (else it isn't sustainable), our sustained damage per round of that day is about 25. Blurred BS is sustaining 19.5. I'll do a probability distribution of the attacks back against BB as I think they are not surviving many such days.

This is why I think the bladesinger should have gained war magic like the eldritch knight instead of extra attack. It does get a little better at level 14 when you also add intelligence mod to damage but not by much (an extra 4 to 5 damage per melee hit but if using weapon cantrips that's all it is). I think it just became a design decision that a caster that picks up some melee via a subclass should gain extra attack at some point.

I guess if the bladesinger uses their concentration slot for something offensive like flaming sphere or spiritual weapon's poor arcane brother, mordenkainen's sword, they can keep up with damage but a regular wizard can do the same and keep blasting with cantrips, hopefully without the danger of being in melee.

cbwjm said:

This is why I think the bladesinger should have gained war magic like the eldritch knight instead of extra attack. It does get a little better at level 14 when you also add intelligence mod to damage but not by much (an extra 4 to 5 damage per melee hit but if using weapon cantrips that's all it is). I think it just became a design decision that a caster that picks up some melee via a subclass should gain extra attack at some point.

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I think it depends on your DM. If they allow a long-rest between every encounter, Frenzy Barbarian sets a bar for melee weapon damage that looks incredible. Does your DM (or you, if you DM) do that?

If they don't, then we see the bar lowered and BS melee weapon damage starts to look decent, especially against sword-and-board Fighter, while their defences due to Bladesong remain extraordinary.

Treantmonklvl20 said:

This is not the vulnerability of the Bladesinger. The Bladesinger has low HP, so things like dragon breath or save or take damage spells, these are the vulnerability of the Bladesinger.

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Oh yeah, I'm aware that their vulnerability is to saves, but my point was that you can't see high AC as invulnarebility, there is always a 5% chance you will get hit....