5E Why does 5E SUCK? - Page 178
  1. #1771
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicberg View Post
    I would totally agree with this. But, it was a situation where I don't know what it is I don't know. My newness to the system worked against me. I've never experienced a situation of multiple players wanting to change mid-campaign and I was caught totally unprepared. Therefore, I never set an expectation of no changes at the onset of the campaign because I honestly didn't think I had to. Perhaps that too old school thinking in this day and age, don't know. But characters never just changed mid flight in any campaign I've run or participated in unless they died.

    So, I will say that it was more my problem than 5e. Again, 5e didn't help me and the lure of the spell casters was obviously too great for them. But I've already learned from this thread, no feats, no multi-class. Now a social contract, which makes sense. The more people respond, the more I'm learning on what to do if I dive into 5e again.
    I should say that I wouldn't change feats and multiclass. I would surely put a "no-nonsense" clause in a game. Feats, specially, aren't such a problem once you acknowledge that they aren't absolute. Multiclass is its own problem. Why a fighter with 20 str should become a warlock suddenly? The "dip" concept is mostly misused, and leaves you behind in many, many areas. Spells are very limited, specially when you acquire them late on the game.

  2. #1772
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicberg View Post
    I would totally agree with this. But, it was a situation where I don't know what it is I don't know. My newness to the system worked against me. I've never experienced a situation of multiple players wanting to change mid-campaign and I was caught totally unprepared. Therefore, I never set an expectation of no changes at the onset of the campaign because I honestly didn't think I had to. Perhaps that too old school thinking in this day and age, don't know. But characters never just changed mid flight in any campaign I've run or participated in unless they died.

    So, I will say that it was more my problem than 5e. Again, 5e didn't help me and the lure of the spell casters was obviously too great for them. But I've already learned from this thread, no feats, no multi-class. Now a social contract, which makes sense. The more people respond, the more I'm learning on what to do if I dive into 5e again.
    Overpowered spellcasters isn't a problem 5e has, especially at 7th level. The game actually works best in the 5-9 level range. I'm not sure what happened at your table, it's clear your expectations differed drastically from your players and no one handled things well (it's entirely possible you encouraged spellcasters rather than non-spellcasters through play incentives). However, the problems you're talking about are player-DM problems, not systemic issues with 5e. I'm perfectly open to having issues with 5e -- I have a few myself -- but it really seems like your blaming a mismatch in expectation on the system. Perhaps you could start a thread on what happened and the community could provide advice on how to keep on track.

  3. #1773
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicberg View Post
    @Lord Mhoram, you're absolutely right. This isn't my first rodeo in being a GM. I started in 1983. This was my first foray into 5e, having taken a long hiatus from D&D (GOT 3.5 was the last D&D I ran) and I didn't limit feats or multi-class. If I ever jump into it again, I certainly would as it would have alleviated a lot of headaches.

    And yes, power gaming has been in an issue in every system since role playing started. That's not new. What really surprised me was the sheer number of people focused on the power gaming side, in large part due to feats and multi-classing. They were actively out there looking for builds that would do 800 HP in a single hit, stuff like that. So I can say, I shot myself in the foot.

    It was amusing, tbh.

    I've had a couple campaigns just blow up on me due to unforseen circumstances. And I almost destroyed a game, but having been a GM, I retired the character and built another (this was in Champions/Hero). I can laugh at it now.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sadras View Post
    Mistwell's first two points cover what I mean by DM adjudication.
    3.x was heaven for the rules lawyers and rule mastery, 4e's system engine was just so neatly designed it certainly barred much need for DM adjudication, whereas 5e is a revert to the older way of play - leaning towards 'mother may I' sort of style (and I do not mean that negatively).
    Now, see, my opinion (speaking as one who has played D&D since its inception, so 'OSR' or 'classic D&D' is something I understand inside and out) is that the preciseness of mechanics combined with the robust 'hook' of highly well-thought-out ubiquitous keywords actually frees both GM and players to be MORE creative! The players know that they can and cannot do and the stakes they are playing. Both GM and players can easily understand what the relations between story and mechanical action are via keywords, and fictional positioning can reliably leverage on those keywords, as can attempts to go beyond the normal rules.

    This is why, IMHO, 5e is a step backwards as a system. It actually reduces the overall freedom and set of options that are practically available. Without adding anything compensatory.
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  5. #1775
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbdulAlhazred View Post
    This is why, IMHO, 5e is a step backwards as a system. It actually reduces the overall freedom and set of options that are practically available.
    Sure different tables have different experiences. At our table we find 4e was restrictive, despite the inclusion of these key-words whereas 5e allows for more creativity.

    YMMV
    Last edited by Sadras; Monday, 1st October, 2018 at 08:45 AM.

  6. #1776
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    Mechanically, nothing. I don't have any serious quibbles with the rules.

    Fluff-wise, too much Realms. Of course, nothing short of taking it out back, beating it with a shovel, then burning what's left is actually going to please me, so take that with a salt mine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbdulAlhazred View Post
    Now, see, my opinion (speaking as one who has played D&D since its inception, so 'OSR' or 'classic D&D' is something I understand inside and out) is that the preciseness of mechanics combined with the robust 'hook' of highly well-thought-out ubiquitous keywords actually frees both GM and players to be MORE creative! The players know that they can and cannot do and the stakes they are playing. Both GM and players can easily understand what the relations between story and mechanical action are via keywords, and fictional positioning can reliably leverage on those keywords, as can attempts to go beyond the normal rules.

    This is why, IMHO, 5e is a step backwards as a system. It actually reduces the overall freedom and set of options that are practically available. Without adding anything compensatory.
    Keywords make the rules master of what you can do, as opposed to the DM. So while this might increase freedom at a table with a DM more towards the "permit the least amount" side of the spectrum, I think your average table results in increased freedom because your average DM will find a way to say "yes" to more things than the keywords would otherwise allow.

    In addition, the keywords by their very nature are intended to cover a range of expected elements of the game, but the nature of the game is that you cannot always accurately anticipate the range of things which can be attempted in a game driven by the imagination of individuals. Which means you inevitably get keywords which don't accurately predict how something will be used sometimes, which leads to further refinement in errata or sage advice, which leads to more unanticipated consequences, more revisions, and you get the snowball effect of page after page of rules revisions like we got in 4e.

    I think these two reasons are why reports of actual 5e play tend to, more often than not, express a sense of increased freedom to do more of what you can imagine on the fly than in many prior editions that had more stringent keywords in the rules.
    Last edited by Mistwell; Monday, 1st October, 2018 at 09:20 PM.

  8. #1778
    The math is really opaque, which hurts the homebrewing community. Its easier to make rulings if the designers TELL US WHAT THEYRE THINKING.

    The way subclasses work, you dont feel like youre playing your character concept until 3rd level at least. Looking at Bladelock here, especially.

    No viable pet options, which is something that a lot of new players want to play with. I just started giving my players a choice between the Servo Crafting feat (UA Kaladesh) or an extra cantrip at first level.

    The emphasis on reflavoring is nice, but eventually all the fights feel the same. Tons of HP and almost no focus on Out-of-Combat encounters mean that those same-y feeling fights take up most of the screentime.
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  9. #1779
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josiah Stoll View Post
    The emphasis on reflavoring is nice, but eventually all the fights feel the same. Tons of HP and almost no focus on Out-of-Combat encounters mean that those same-y feeling fights take up most of the screentime.
    I do not see what that has to do with the 5E rules. That sounds like the adventures a dungeon master chooses to create OR the personality of the players. Does the dungeon master provide NPCs to talk to and interesting cultures to explore? Do the players talk to new NPCs and take time to explore, or do they just kill everything and take their stuff?
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  10. #1780
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josiah Stoll View Post
    Tons of HP and almost no focus on Out-of-Combat encounters mean that those same-y feeling fights take up most of the screentime.
    The big HP criticism is valid. I think that influenced a number of MtoF monsters.

    Now I've only played in 5e Official published adventures, but I've always had lots of non-combat encounters, in fact, combat can be avoided entirely in a lot of cases.

    Even my current brutal Barbarian in SKT is shrewd enough to know if you fight you might die, so make sure you've got a good reason to fight first.

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