Mike Mearls on D&D Psionics: Should Psionic Flavor Be Altered?

GX.Sigma · Jun 9, 2015

My favorite part about 5e is how it alters classic D&D mechanics and flavor just for the sake of being different from older editions!

Oh, wait. I mean the opposite of that.

Vael · Jun 9, 2015

Theoretically, were I working on psionics, I'd try to set some high bars for the execution. Such as - no psionic power duplicates a spell, and vice versa. Psionics uses a distinct mechanic, so no spell slots.

Strongly Agree. Psionicists should not feel like spellcasters. That said, they still need to have their areas of expertise. So Telepaths should still do all the things that Telepaths do. But yes to no "Psionic X".

One thing that might be controversial - I really don't like the scientific terminology, like psychokinesis, etc.

Slightly Disagree. I like the idiosyncrasy. But I'm not wedded to the notion.

But I think a psionicist should be exotic and weird, and drawing on/tied to something unsettling on a cosmic scale.... [but]... I think the source of psi would be pretty far from the realm of making pacts. IMO, old one = vestige from 3e's Tome of Magic.

Disagree. Psionics, to me, is more internal, and less about touching external powers.

One final note - Dark Sun is, IMO, a pretty good example of what happens to a D&D setting when psionic energy reaches its peak. Not that the rules would require it, but I think it's an interesting idea to illustrate psi's relationship to magic on a cosmic level."

... I'm not sure what to make of this. My Dark Sun fu is not great, but I thought the prevalence of Psionics was due to how destructive magic use is. Obviously, a Psionic user should be balanced with a spell caster of the same level, so why play the cosmic balance game?

Sunseeker · Jun 9, 2015

Psionics is simple and this feels like an effort to overcomplicate the matter.

Psionics is the power of the mind. It's different from knowing how to properly issue the command words that unlock the fundamental elements of reality. It's different from calling on the power of another to shape reality for you. It's very close to Ki. It's the power of the mind, your pure force of will shaping reality as you see fit.

I will unabashedly refuse to accept any psionic material that is somehow based on some sort of powers sourced from unearthly beings or extra-dimensional forces. There's nothing unearthly about psionics, and there shouldn't be.

DEFCON 1 · Jun 9, 2015

The biggest thing they're going to run into is the fact that if indeed they make it a single class with 2 to 3 sub-classes, players will have to accept that the range of combat power in the psionic character won't be nearly as great as they have been previously. You're going to be looking at the combat potential spread that you find in the various Cleric domains. All have the same hit points, all have fairly comperable armor and weapon use, all are missing fighting styles, extra attacks etc.

Which means that those people who were hoping for a much wider range of psionic characters... the Psychic Warrior matching the combat power of the Fighter down through the Psion matching the combat power of the Wizard... that won't come across with only a single class. Instead... if we did want that kind of range-- you'd really need to create the psionic mechanics that are different and separate and can be layered on top of the existing classes. So a sub-class of the Fighter than uses psionics (like a psionic EK), a sub-class of the Rogue that uses psionics (like a psionic AT), a sub-class of the Sorcerer that uses full psionics, etc. If that's the kind of range people want for their psionic characters, that'd probably the direction they'll have to go.

Unless of course they just create 3 or more entirely new classes for psionics, but to me that kind of wastes the point of having sub-classes in the first place.

Staffan · Jun 9, 2015

shidaku said:
I will unabashedly refuse to accept any psionic material that is somehow based on some sort of powers sourced from unearthly beings or extra-dimensional forces. There's nothing unearthly about psionics, and there shouldn't be.

I kind of agree, and kind of don't.

I agree that psionics should be primarily internal. However, I can certainly see some kind of encounter with eldritch beings "awakening" that internal power - the psion doesn't draw power from the Far Realm, but the Far Realm unlocked the psion's inherent power. That should only be one possible "origin" however - training and discipline should be a far more common origin story.

I can also see psionics as being the power that (many) eldritch things use. You already have mind flayers and aboleths being heavily into psionics, and those are pretty alien. It should not be the only psionic path, but it should be around.

On a final note, and this is directed at the thread in general: psionics that can't accurately portray Dark Sun are not useful psionics, and Dark Sun was based around 2e psionics. 2e psionics were generally not so good with energy, but pretty good with intangibles. It was extremely poor at direct damage - it basically topped out at the equivalent of heat metal.

AverageCitizen · Jun 9, 2015

steeldragons said:
I might break it down a bit furhter, more thoroughly, thusly:

Wizard: Source: External. Flavor: Arcane Magic. Access: External. Flavor: Learning spells/forumlae [including ritual]/components & item use.

Cleric: Source: External. Flavor: Divine Magic granted by the gods. Access: External. Flavor: Learning or "given" the proper spells[prayers]/formulae[rites]/components[holy symbol] and item use.

Druid: Source: External. Flavor: Divine Magic granted by a connection to the forces of nature [or, more simply, "Nature Magic"]. Access: External. Learning or granted proper spells/formulae/components[mistletoe/herbs] and item use.

Sorcerer: Source: External. Flavor: Arcane Magic. Access: Internal. Flavor: Innate channeling of arcane magic to produce spell effects, initiate item use, inherently figure out proper formulae.

Warlock: Source: Internal. Flavor: Arcane Magic as granted/imbued by non-divine entity. Access: Internal & External. Flavor: being "granted" proper spells/formulae[invocations]/components and item use to "evoke" the magical power they have been given and/or [in a more limited way than Wizards or Sorcerers] harness and direct arcane energies properly.

Monks: Source: Internal. Flavor: One's own spiritual power, labelled as "Ki". Access: Internal. Flavor: accessing one's "ki" through years of disciplined training and focus.

So...Psionics would/could be seen as...

Psions: Source: Internal. Flavor: One's own mental/psychic power, labeled as [let's say] "psyche." Access: Internal. Flavor: accessing one's "psyche" through intense concentration/focus (which may but doesn't necessarily have to include years of training or discipline)...[and/or potentially using/turning the psyche/minds of others against themselves.]

Is that distinct enough for a new base class with separate [at least 2 or 3] subclasses and maybe also minor power feats? I don't know. I think so. But I'm not calling the shots.

I'm with you on psionics being an inner power source. I like that.

A nitpick though, I feel like you've missed the mark on warlocks and sorcerors. Specifically, warlocks are quintessential external (they get their power from pacts) and sorcerors are quintessential internal (they get their power from innate magic).

Fralex · Jun 9, 2015

I talked about what I'd like to see psionics be a while ago, and I stand by it:

Fralex said:
There aren't any magic-based classes that aren't also spellcasters! The two terms are sometimes used interchangeably, even. But it's a well-known kind of character: the guy/gal who only knows one or two simple tricks, but they can use them all the time and find new ways to use them. This is quite different from a spellcaster, who has a whole bunch of different expendable abilities. It would be more like... using magic as a weapon, I suppose. Fighters don't learn new weapons when they get stronger; they don't even use all that many different weapons. Why not have a class that treats magic the same way?

Usually, when I think of a psychic from a story, they didn't really have lots of different psychic abilities. Like, Matilda's whole range of psionic talents were just basic telekinesis. The oracles from stories rarely can do anything else associated with psionics, unless they're also wizards of some sort. So although the overall range of things psychics are known to be capable of is quite expansive, few psychics have all those powers.

I don't really care that much if psionic powers have pseudoscientific or new-agey names. I mean, there's a couple spells that sound like that, too. More importantly, I don't really imagine psionic powers to be so expansive that there would even be an in-world nomenclature for each one. You might not even need to break it down any farther than the six psionic disciplines:

Fralex said:
Psychokinesis- The ability to conjure energy and move objects mentally, at a distance.

Psychoportation- The ability to mentally warp spacetime for instantaneous transportation through space or, in some cases, time.

Psychometabolism- The ability to manipulate biological processes with but a thought to induce healing, adrenaline rushes, and other physiological boosts.

Clairsentience- Also known as Extrasensory Perception. Grants a person special senses to access useful hidden information, most commonly about the future.

Telepathy- The ability to touch other minds. Enables mental communication and mind control.

Metacreativity- The ability to conjure and shape solid matter (or often just solid invisible force) using the mind. Mimes wish they were that good.

And the names the practitioners of these disciplines sound more like medieval-level mysticism. Psychoportators are called Nomads, Psychometabolists are called Egoists, and Clairsentients are called Seers.

jrowland · Jun 9, 2015

I would caution people with the thought that there is a difference between

"Tied to Far Realm" as in psionics derive from far realm and are a far realm schtick. i.e. Far Realm begets Psionics.

and

"Tied to Far Realm" as in using psionics attracts Far Realm denizens. i.e. Psionics Begets Far Realm. "Mage brains are fine, but nothing tastes as sweet as a psions brain - Zerxiplad the Mind Flayer"

In the former, you lock psionics down thematically, in the latter, psionics can be fairly broad, but the Far realm is locked down thematically (which it already is). So, in this latter case, you could do a broad design choice for psionics but still have a narrow Far Realm psionics (sub-classes, organizations, storylines) that specialize in Mind Flayers.

Morlock · Jun 9, 2015

* Psionic powers are typically "blunt" in the sense that they do not unfold a complex series of effects over time, are not typically flashy in the manner of arcane spells

This. In fact, I had this typed up already:

One of my design goals is to make psionics more plausible than magic. And, following from that is my goal to minimize the apparent intelligence involved. E.g., a fireball doesn't imply much in the way of outside intelligence. But an animated object? That seems to require some external intelligence, to a degree (and if it doesn't, I'm sure we can dig up some spells that do; edit: Guards & Wards is a great example). Otherwise, it would take all the caster's effort to control the thing, essentially occupying it himself. For every effect that I'm converting from magic to psionics, I have to ask myself if the caster's intellect is really enough to drive it. If not, my tendency is to axe it. But it's a balancing act. Take healing. You could make the argument that there's no way in hell a caster has the mental processing power required to go in there and manage all those cells himself. On the other hand, it's fairly plausible to conceive of some higher biological processes further up the hierarchy, that the healer is influencing.

Other design goals include axing the more physically impossible stuff, like teleportation, time travel, etc.

steeldragons · Jun 9, 2015

AverageCitizen said:
I'm with you on psionics being an inner power source. I like that.

A nitpick though, I feel like you've missed the mark on warlocks and sorcerors. Specifically, warlocks are quintessential external (they get their power from pacts) and sorcerors are quintessential internal (they get their power from innate magic).

I'll see you nitpick and raise you a quibble...

With sorcerers, their ACCESS mode is internal. They innately can manifest, harness and direct Arcane energies...but those energies are inherently EXTERNAL to to the sorcerer...per my view.

The warlocks, I'll grant was kind of a toss up...is the arcane magic external to the warlock or is the warlock kind of "charged up" via their patron/pact, thus enabling their "at will" magic and their "any ole time" invocations, up to a point. To help with the theoretical distinction between Warlock and Sorcerer, instead of having two guys wtih "external source/internal access" I opted for the lesser [common] interpretation as the "Warlock as magic battery." But you are right, I could just as easily said Warlock is another External power source. Flavor also Arcane Magic, differentiated by the added flavor/fluff of being granted their instruction and power by their patron.

Perhaps, unique to the list, the Warlock becomes the only class with a Source that is, at once, External & Internal...as are their methods of Access?

Mike Mearls on D&D Psionics: Should Psionic Flavor Be Altered?

GX.Sigma

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