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  1. #71
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    DTRPG's latest controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Crothian View Post
    If one is going to compete with them one would have to under price them. I think people would shop elsewhere if a PDF was going to be a buck or so cheaper.
    Publishers set their own price.

    You're competing for the publishers, not for the customers. If all the publishers are elsewhere, the customers will go there. So what can you offer a publisher to make it worth the large amounts of hassle it is to upload and maintain a product catalogue somewhere else?

    I get under 10% of my sales from Paizo.com as opposed to DTRPG. Closer to 5%. I had had my catalogue up at d20pfsrd for about six months. In that time I sold exactly zero items there. Not a single one. So it's not easy to offer publishers the carrot of high traffic or sales. The horse has to come before the cart.

    The only thing I can think of which would attract me is if a store did ALL the work for me. If I didn't have to lift a finger to upload and maintain a large product catalogue, including PoD files, and if the location in question had good real-time payments and withdrawals, and good reporting tools, I'd sign a piece of paper saying "yes". So that's the USP which would work for me.

    I can't speak for anybody else.
    Last edited by Morrus; Wednesday, 2nd September, 2015 at 11:32 PM.
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  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evenglare View Post
    See the issue with that prosfilaes is that in almost every scenario those PDFs aren't sold, or even shown to the general public.
    Define general public. At DriveThruRPG, I have the adult filter turned on; I suspect that most of the accounts do, and that most of the users with the adult filter turned on have their limits. Personally, I want to see serious attempts at adult themes. I can live with the cheesecake (though I feel some of it is out of place; much of Sade's work will never see its place in any RPG, for example). And I can feel uncomfortable with stuff like the work in question, which really is the exception even under the adult filter.

    I'm split between buying the cat-women book by Scorched Urf now before it gets removed, or leaving it because this makes it clear they can't handle the adult themes reasonably.

    For instance, back when there were movie rental stores, they would put the XXX stuff in a back room behind curtains.
    Some of them just wouldn't include it, and I suspect that some of those who excluded it completely (like Blockbuster) got business that drove past stores that had XXX sections to go to a place without it. And I suspect many of those that did had lines they just wouldn't cross.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crothian View Post
    If one is going to compete with them one would have to under price them. I think people would shop elsewhere if a PDF was going to be a buck or so cheaper.
    If you've bought a PDF recently, what were the prices on e23, Paizo and OBS? If people aren't checking, that's not true. I don't check; $1 is not enough to make it worth splitting between sites more then I have to.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brennen View Post
    ...

    I hope those publishers who removed their products in protest don't put them back until DTRPG issues an acknowledgement of their lapse in responsiveness, business sense and human decency, and initiate a change in policy regarding the type of material accepted on their site. I mean, who looks at a game title like that and thinks "yeah, this is fine to add to our catalogue." ...

    Quote Originally Posted by RangerWickett View Post
    ... "Those of you with equally horrible sensibilities to our company should visit our website at blah.com."
    I picked a couple out the morass of objections. I am going to ask a couple sincere questions here and ask for sincere answers. So far I've been accused of being a pedophile and rapist, so it might be nice to actually have a conversation that does not indict me as a criminal because I object to the removal of ANY product on OBS.

    1. What makes the existence of an Adult product called Tournament of Rapists so bad? Wrong? Objectionable? Why does making a Hentai RPG or a supplement where you fight the rapists amount to "horrible sensibilities"? Would an RPG about Hentai where you play the demons be as/more bad? Worse than say Vampire? Why is sex or sexual fantasies this "bright line"? I am talking specifically about the act of consenting adults playing a tabletop RPG around a table. Doing make-believe.

    2. Is bullying and terrorizing publishers who make products you don't approve of any different than bullying and terrorizing those who don't share your sexuality? Gender? Race? Skin Color? Religion?

    3. How is violence, genocide, kidnapping, grave-robbing, human trafficking, slavery, pornography, drug abuse, alcoholism, orgies, murder, war (just to mention a handful of subjects) OK in almost every RPG game/supplement since the beginning of the hobby, but this one Hentai game or TOR supplement so bad? Or a Gamer Gate satire card game? Or a game where you play naked sex fairies frolicking about the homes of Rome collecting naughty dreams?

    Please don't just rage at me, I've had enough of that. I sincerely would like someone to please connect the dots for me. "Because it's rape/sexy-times/offensive to me" is way too simple of an answer. "It's obvious and you're being disingenuous" is, in itself, a disingenuous dodge.

    Just to note I'm not an MRA/GamerGater. I am not a criminal nor do I engage in criminal sexual behavior (look me up, I'm easy to find for anyone who would like to do a background check). I have signed and donated to the He for She campaign (of which I enthusiastically support). I consider myself a feminist and I support equal rights for all people of all variances in all circumstances. Thought I would clear that up before the tirade of insults and recriminations.

    Sincerely,

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreChriron View Post
    Please don't just rage at me, I've had enough of that.
    Then we'll just write an RPG supplement that depicts you being raped and sell it on OBS. That's way better, no? Really, how dare you censor us by asking us not to rage at you?

    If you don't want to be seen as disingenuous, start by thinking about your questions. I can't legitimately find any reason why you can't see a difference between attacking someone because of who they are and because of what they're creating. Nor can I see any legitimate reason to call asking for a product to be removed from a platform "bullying and terrorizing". #2 is a horrible, horrible question.
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  6. #76
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    What makes the existence of an Adult product called Tournament of Rapists so bad?
    The problem was that- even though the product was supposedly about FIGHTING rapists- in no way could that be determined from the title, cover art, or marketing blurb. Absent evidence that didn't require purchasing it, the product looked like something that glorified rape, and the publishers & market reacted. As far as they were aware, this was like RaHoWa. The publisher has no one to blame but themselves for that.

    DTRPG, even after reading enough content to ascertain that the product was not actually endorsing rape roleplay, but rather, was an enemies sourcebook, did not inform anyone of this fact. (Near as I can tell, anyway.)

    Is bullying and terrorizing publishers who make products you don't approve of any different than bullying and terrorizing those who don't share your sexuality? Gender? Race? Skin Color? Religion?
    I didn't see bullying. I saw people voting with their dollars and custom. That's how a free market capitalist society works. Now, that they did is no different than doing so on the basis of other reasons, in terms of method.

    What differs is the moral opprobrium attached to the context of the protest. While other societies, past and present, near & far have all deemed discrimination based on things like religion, race, gender, etc. to be OK, right here and now, we generally don't.

    Same goes for things rape-related. If you're going to have a product dealing with fighting evil rapists, make sure Joe Consumer can tell that the product deals with fighting evil rapists, not with roleplaying one.. It really is that simple.

    How is violence, genocide, kidnapping, grave-robbing, human trafficking, slavery, pornography, drug abuse, alcoholism, orgies, murder, war (just to mention a handful of subjects) OK in almost every RPG game/supplement since the beginning of the hobby, but this one Hentai game or TOR supplement so bad? Or a Gamer Gate satire card game? Or a game where you play naked sex fairies frolicking about the homes of Rome collecting naughty dreams?
    See above. Make it clear this is an enemies sourcebook, not a "play an evil rapist" sourcebook.

    But if someone wants to produce or play an evil rapist RPG, so be it. This is, after all, a free market capitalist society. They just shouldn't be surprised when the product gets ghettocized away from mainstream outlets, and their names become anathema in the industry. See the aforementioned RaHoWa.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by prosfilaes View Post
    Then we'll just write an RPG supplement that depicts you being raped and sell it on OBS. That's way better, no? Really, how dare you censor us by asking us not to rage at you?

    If you don't want to be seen as disingenuous, start by thinking about your questions. I can't legitimately find any reason why you can't see a difference between attacking someone because of who they are and because of what they're creating. Nor can I see any legitimate reason to call asking for a product to be removed from a platform "bullying and terrorizing". #2 is a horrible, horrible question.
    I was asking for reasonable discourse. And then you raged at me... :-P Which is fine. I have thick skin. I'm sure someone will come along and engage in a conversation.

    I would suggest that when you make that supplement you include the disclaimer "not based on any real person living or dead" and then all I can do is revel in your dark well-calculated revenge-porn published for all time recrimination. Frankly, I would be flattered.

    I did think about my question professor P. Hence why I asked them. Why is #2 a horrible, horrible question. This seems like I'm lectured from high by "his holiness the professor of Prosfilaes" but you didn't answer any of the questions.

    You just mustered more questions. Like WHY is question #2 so horrible?

  8. #78
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    Technically, he never said you couldn't rage at him, he asked that you "just don't rage" at him. The power of trigger words is one that can, has, turned many a calm communicator into a rage-blind spewer of righteous fury (this is not a specific accusation of anyone in particular, but a general perception of human reaction to certain triggers - not just words, of course).

    Unfortunately, I cannot engage him in the discourse he desires, as I am not an opposing viewpoint. I am also much more interested in this conversation (not only here, but in other locations across the online universe) than I first thought I would be, so am hoping for more discussion from opposing viewpoints here.

    EDIT: Oops, I didn't quote the post to which I was replying. Also, I typed my post slowly.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz View Post
    The problem was that- ...
    You didn't really answer my questions.

    "glorified rape - roleplaying rape" - so let me clarify what I'm asking based on these parts of your post.

    Let's just say for the sake of argument someone writes a Hentai RPG clearly marked as Adult Content. It has disclaimers on the front cover that states; "warning, adult content and sexual subject matter. Includes depictions of non-consensual sex. Reader discretion is advised."

    The game is a Hentai game made in the style of a World of Darkness product. You play a demon in the anime style who has a predilection to certain vile acts in order to "stay alive" like a Vampire feeds on blood. All the style, mood, theme and GM advice in the book are tailored for your group to emulate the Hentai anime style.

    Why is the existence of this game horrible? Why is the playing of this game horrible?

    I would sincerely like someone to specifically connect the dots, draw the lines as it were. Pretend like you're in a sociology classroom. You're the professor explaining this to me. You can explain it to me with as much "personal agenda" or "analytical neutrality" as you wish. However, remember I'm your student. I'm paying tuition. You can't insult me or hurt me, you have to EDUCATE me.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreChriron View Post
    I was asking for reasonable discourse.
    Then offer it. Stop loading your questions. "When did you stop beating your wife?"

    "2. Is bullying and terrorizing publishers who make products you don't approve" is not reasonable discourse, because it frames people arguing that DriveThruRPG should not give a platform to these people as terrorists.

    "3. How is violence, genocide, kidnapping, grave-robbing, human trafficking, slavery, pornography, drug abuse, alcoholism, orgies, murder, war (just to mention a handful of subjects) OK in almost every RPG game/supplement since the beginning of the hobby" is not reasonable discourse, because it makes a false claim in the assumption of the question. I don't know of a single RPG work that has included pornography as part of its subjects. Actually, GURPS Infinite Worlds discusses pornography once, in a completely non-explicit paragraph about how an libertarian world imports most of its porn because non-trangressive porn is boring and a libertarian world could produce nothing else. Maybe a couple of the extremely controversial OGL (not D20!) works of erotic fantasy. Similarly for orgies. Drug abuse has seen a few references, but it's hardly a common subject in RPGs. Alcoholism is also a fairly rare subject. Slavery and kidnapping are infrequent, and usually clearly portrayed as the bad guys. We can talk about the rest, and have, but that's a lot different from the claim you hid in your question.

    The Lord of the RIngs movies cover the material that is virtually ubiquitous in RPGs. They got PG-13, 12s in other nations. Works like the Tournament of Rapists get X, unrated, banned, 18. (Not NC-17; I seriously doubt the MPAA would accept this for rating at all.) It should not be surprising to an adult that these things are treated differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by TreChriron View Post
    ]However, remember I'm your student. I'm paying tuition. You can't insult me or hurt me, you have to EDUCATE me.
    Here's the reality of the thing; even if you were a student, the teacher does not have to stop class to deal with disingenuous questions with falsehoods embedded in them. It's hard enough having actual discussions without people who act in willful ignorance of reality.
    Last edited by prosfilaes; Thursday, 3rd September, 2015 at 01:30 AM.

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