Last Stand - Revising Death Saves

MortalPlague · Sep 16, 2015

I have come to the realization that I don't like death saving throws.

There are two problems for me. First, on your turn, all you do is roll a die, and either tick a 'success' or a 'failure'. It's not exciting or dramatic like it should be, unless you're on the verge of rolling a final failure.

Secondly, if you do fail that third death save, you bleed out, which is one of the most boring ways possible for a hero to die. It's become so very rare for a PC to die from anything other than 'bleeding out', since monsters so rarely target a downed PC, and hitting the massive damage threshold is extremely difficult. If a PC dies, I want it to be dramatic.

So I have a solution. I haven't tested this yet, but I plan to trot it out for a one-shot or two to see how it plays.

Last Stand

When a PC drops to 0, they may stay on their feet. At the start of each of their turns, they roll a death save as normal. If they fail three saves, they bleed out and die. If they succeed on three saves, they stabilize and regain 1 hit point. Any failed saves are kept, so if the PC gets knocked back down to 0 after stabilizing, they begin to die once more.

The PC remains on their feet, however, and they have their full suite of actions. They may attack, cast spells, pull levers, throw items, etc. They can heal themselves, if they have the means to do so. They can choose to disengage from combat and duck down out of the fight to try and bandage themselves and stabilize themselves.

The PC will still earn a failed death save for every attack that hits them. They also become vulnerable to damage while they are dying, which means any attack could have a chance to hit the massive damage threshold. The vulnerability is important, since the PC is no longer counting hit points. It keeps things dicey when a big damage attack comes their way.

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The goal is to create a more cinematic system where you can have more of a heroic last stand, and where more heroes are actually cut down in battle, rather than bleed out on the floor. It also means players whose characters are knocked down to 0 aren't sitting at the table, waiting for their turn to come up so they can roll one die and see what happens. I haven't tested it yet, but ENWorld is always such a great sounding board, I figured I'd throw it out here and see what people think.

Li Shenron · Sep 16, 2015

Just try it out and see how it goes

In general I think the default rule is quite generous, and that it is meant to basically give time to your allies to come healing you or stabilize you. I haven't seen anyone dying yet in 5e.

Kobold Stew · Sep 16, 2015

I've not found that bleeding out is passive for players. One way to make the death saves more dramatic is to have monsters kill unconscious players. A player goes down? An extra clubbing from a bugbear to keep him down will suddenly make players aware that monsters mean business. Any damage causes the failure of one or two death saves, and attacks are made at advantage (doubling the chance of crits, which takes two saves).

The first time a monster goes for a player that's down (and who wouldn't in a world with clerics and instant healing spells?), players start thinking a lot more about staying alive.

S'mon · Sep 16, 2015

I also dislike death saves, so I don't use them, I use death at max negative hp (32 hp PC dies at -32) which works much better IMO. I don't want PCs bleeding out in 3 rounds or popping back up routinely, and this fixes both those problems.

Technically if you go for an hour untended you do make a death save to see if you can short rest and spend hd; if you fail 3 consecutively you die.

wedgeski · Sep 16, 2015

I like your ideas, but in the general case I don't agree that DST's are passive or unexciting. They encourage the party to think as a unit. Assuming you *ever* have your monsters attack unconscious PC's, the sight of their comrades dropping to zero forces a palpable change of strategy from the rest of the group. Suddenly it's all about zoning the monsters and dropping some healing on the injured party. This is to say nothing of the d20 of death the PC potentially has to roll every turn. Anything which encourages tactical diversity in combat gets a thumbs-up from me.

Like I said, though, your house rule sounds fun. The damage vulnerability is especially neat. It will force difficult choices on the dying PC, and by the sound of it that's exactly what you're going for.

Kalshane · Sep 16, 2015

Kobold Stew said:
I've not found that bleeding out is passive for players. One way to make the death saves more dramatic is to have monsters kill unconscious players. A player goes down? An extra clubbing from a bugbear to keep him down will suddenly make players aware that monsters mean business. Any damage causes the failure of one or two death saves, and attacks are made at advantage (doubling the chance of crits, which takes two saves).

The first time a monster goes for a player that's down (and who wouldn't in a world with clerics and instant healing spells?), players start thinking a lot more about staying alive.

Actually, any attack from within 5' of a dying PC is an automatic critical if it hits, due to the Unconscious condition. (And, as you note, the attack rolls are made with Advantage.)

Blackwarder · Sep 16, 2015

That sounds like a fun idea very cinematic, it will make healers very hard to kill though…

As another thought, how about giving a character at 0 two levels of exhaustion + concentration checks for casting spells above cantrips?

Warder

jrowland · Sep 16, 2015

I like it.
Let the PC remain conscious with 0 hp.
Still make Death Saves.

I'd add:
On a failed death save, no actions that turn but can move unless take exhaustion, then can do both
On a successful death save, can take actions (no Dash) or move unless take exhaustion, then can do both
On a 1, instead of double death fails, gain exhaustion in addition to normal fail
On a 20, 1 HP, grats, you got lucky.

Hmm...what happens when you stabilize? Bleeding out makes sense, but if you are already "active", what does stabilize do? I guess your done making saves. I'd say Action (dash) or move unless take exhaustion, then can do both, until you get 1 hp.

Fanaelialae · Sep 16, 2015

The biggest issue that I can see with this would be healers with bonus action heals. This makes someone with Healing Word or a Thief with the Healer feat able to fight an opponent with a single attack (such as an Ogre) indefinitely (so long as their spell slots / healers kits hold out). I would maybe change it so that they get either a Standard or a Bonus action, not both. That would make stabilizing yourself less of an afterthought.

It would be pretty suicidal though if you were surrounded. I like Blackwarder's exhaustion idea. Maybe instead of accruing death saves, you instead accrue exhaustion for being hit when making a last stand (crits could count as two levels of exhaustion). In some ways it is meaner, since it is a death spiral, but it would mean that the one making the last stand could take 3 to 6 more hits before dying, as opposed to 2 to 3, which makes it more viable if you have a lot of enemies on you.

The Grassy Gnoll · Sep 16, 2015

Doesn't this really come down, as so many things in ttrpg do, to how it's visualised or communicated?
DSTs work fine and can be positioned as:
(Baddie deals the damage reducing PC to 0 or negative hp): "You are sliced by the Dire Squirrel's claws and collapse to the ground"
(Next round -DST1): "You are in shock and pain, struggling for breath. You cannot get up or concentrate on anything but the pain. Make a DST..."
(Rolls, passes): "OK, your eyesight blurred, you desperately press down on the wound"
(3rd round, DST2): (rolls, fails) "The pain is excruciating and you black out for a moment"
(4th round, DST3): (rolls, fails) "You scream in pain as you come to briefly, you're shocked to see the gash in your side and the blood everywhere. You fight the pain but it is overwhelming"
(5th round, DST4): (rolls, passes) "Clenching your teeth, you shake your head and try to focus - the room is spinning"
(6th round, DST5): (rolls, fails) "You lurch upright in a desperate attempt to stand. The effort flashes pain across your vision. Stumbling, you pull yourself to your feet, slipping in your own blood. What are your last words?"
(Alternate 6th round): (rolls, passes) "You lurch upright in a desperate effort. The pain flashes across your eyes but you shake it off and pull yourself to your feet. Your sword is still in your hand and the Dire Squirrel remains upright before you. You have 1 hp. What do you do?"
It's not the mechanic that fails to deliver drama, it's how it's role played (by the DM).