5E 5e's new gender policy - is it attracting new players? - Page 3
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wik View Post
    Sure. Except I'm not LGBTQ. I'm a plain jane white male. I'm not excluded from anything. Doesn't mean I don't think it's unfair when others draw lines in the sand and pretend they're not there.
    Well I'm bi and I still think you're making an issue out of something where there is none.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by discosoc View Post
    Well I'm bi and I still think you're making an issue out of something where there is none.
    Fair enough.

    I stand by my opinion - there is absolutely nothing wrong with being inclusive of others in pop culture. And D&D is pop culture. I have just recently seen that by making a minor tweak in how I present my game ("be respectful of others' sexuality" and all that) has changed how previous "no"s have turned into "yes".

    5e is more inclusive than any other D&D edition yet, but I think it has a bit further to go. You obviously don't think it matters; I believe that it does.

    We can argue it out; it's the nature of forums.
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  3. #23
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    I doubt it brings in new players... but I would bet my life that at least one person read that, smiled and felt better... I can't imagine a better reason to have it in the book
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by discosoc View Post
    Well I'm bi and I still think you're making an issue out of something where there is none.
    Ditto on all counts, honestly.

    I really don't get the big push for "inclusivity" and "diversity." On any of the various axes... Race/gender/sexuality.

    If I'm playing a game about warriors in a fantasy Incan empire, I don't want a bunch of white guys any more than I'd want any female PCs. If it's a gritty medieval fantasy I don't want openly gay or trans people, unless they're interested in role playing a very difficult life.

    If I'm running a generic anachronistic D&D setting... Sure, fine, whatever. At that point I feel about it the same way I do in real life: Who cares?

    I guess that's the problem for me. Either it's a pseudo-historical setting where this stuff would have major, usually negative, role playing consequences... In which case people get upset that it's not inclusive.

    Or it's anachronistic and with modern western urban sensibilities... In which case nobody cares and it doesn't matter, so why make a big deal about it?

    It's like people want it to be a big deal per the first scenario, but with zero uncomfortable or difficult consequences per the second scenario.

    I just don't get it.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers View Post
    I doubt it brings in new players... but I would bet my life that at least one person read that, smiled and felt better... I can't imagine a better reason to have it in the book
    Wonderful statement, and I applaud the sentiment.

    For what it's worth, though, I think it may have. I read an early review of 5e, and it was one of those things that was commented on frequently by both the reviewer and comments section. By suggesting that the game is more inclusive than the so-called "D&D nerd" of the past might have caused people who would have otherwise passed to give it a go.

    I just sincerely hope that wotc follows up on it. They don't need to make Orcus gay, or have there be a pride parade in neverwinter, or anything. Just a few small npc details (like the bachelors of hommlet mentioned above!) would be more than enough.
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  6. #26
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    I think this all boils down to the basic truth that when a person is looking at a game of a roleplaying nature, they want to see that an avatar they identify with is present - whatever form that avatar might take.

    Looking at the game and seeing that it is supporting such an avatar in some way is like a kind of invitation, to go grade school with it, that yes, you can in fact sit at the cool kid's table.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MostlyDm View Post
    I guess that's the problem for me. Either it's a pseudo-historical setting where this stuff would have major, usually negative, role playing consequences... In which case people get upset that it's not inclusive.

    Or it's anachronistic and with modern western urban sensibilities... In which case nobody cares and it doesn't matter, so why make a big deal about it?

    It's like people want it to be a big deal per the first scenario, but with zero uncomfortable or difficult consequences per the second scenario.

    I just don't get it.
    That's a very good observation...

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wik View Post
    Many turned it down - some of whom I've never met, but were invited by other people who are attending. One is gay, and another is transgender. Anyways, after I posted my little PDF, I guess it got passed around. They caught wind of it (I live in a small town), and suddenly have changed their minds. Both are attending tomorrow.
    I haven't read the rest of the thread yet because I'm betting it will be kind of depressing, but before any of that I wanted to say that this is awesome. Growing the game is good, and all human beings should be welcome to it. I'm glad you got some new players!

    So, I'm curious - did my table rules have an effect? Did my "open table" change their minds, make them less nervous of attending a table populated by people they don't know?

    And this curiousity has got me wondering - is the game's official stance on LGBTQ issues going to help attract new players in those (and other) communities? Does more need to be done, or is the current pace the correct one?
    I dunno, that'd probably be a Q for WotC's marketing crew. I do know that without a bent toward inclusivity, my own D&D adventures probably would've waned, and I definitely wouldn't have my currently awesome in-person group. It really helps, in a game that takes lots of inspiration from the "racist granddads" of the pulp genre (Howard, Lovecraft, etc.), and whose use of archetypes can veer into stereotypes, to have the inclusive message explicit. It's useful to have it noted publicly: "we want your kind here." That kind of affirmation can be a bit of an assurance against inadvertent (or even intentional) problems, and can absolutely make someone used to feeling excluded feel like maybe this place has a place for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wik
    Just a few small npc details (like the bachelors of hommlet mentioned above!) would be more than enough.
    War of the Burning Sky has an elven lesbian love triangle that features kind of prominently in the second episode, FWIW. IIRC, it's not called out in big neon letters that these characters are BIG OL' LESBIANS!!!(1)!, it's just a bit of stuff with the pronouns, but discovering the details of that relationship can be pretty important to the narrative, and to how the adventure ends.
    Last edited by I'm A Banana; Friday, 9th October, 2015 at 05:30 AM.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by AaronOfBarbaria View Post
    I think this all boils down to the basic truth that when a person is looking at a game of a roleplaying nature, they want to see that an avatar they identify with is present - whatever form that avatar might take.

    Looking at the game and seeing that it is supporting such an avatar in some way is like a kind of invitation, to go grade school with it, that yes, you can in fact sit at the cool kid's table.
    I guess this is an example of the main difference. I think the best avatars have very little in common with their players. Quiet nerds playing brash brutes, sweet gentle souls playing merciless killers, rich people playing poor people, men playing women and women playing men...

    If a setting is appropriate for LGBT folk, my hope would be that the LGBT characters are played by the most cis-het players at the table... And vice versa. Of course, this last one is often seen by many as taboo or offensive. Another reason why I'm skeptical this form of inclusivity is really all that great.

  10. #30
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    I would disagree, it is white male but not Upper middle class....looking at all the twitch channels and people in the stores, i'd say maybe middle class as best.

    I agree with discosoc - it's a non issue, make the NPC whatever you want as a DM. The player where this might matter won't know if you made that decision as DM for a NPC so I don't see the same players saying, oh well, I'm not going to play this game since the adventures, as a new player your trying to bring in, wont know how it's written anyway.

    From this thread it seems to be important to you....so make it how you want but don't expect or think WoTC should include this in the stat block. If they don't write the story so 2 people are an item, them change it or make it your own.

    Since I hit the submit, I've read other posts as well and well said by MostlyDM and others.
    Last edited by EthanSental; Friday, 9th October, 2015 at 05:23 AM.

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