D&D 5E 5e completely nerfed charm - for YOU, anyway

Morlock · Feb 13, 2016

I've noticed that every charm/dominate ability in 5e is nerfed all to [expletive]. Just for kicks, I looked up the vampire's charm, to see what a nerfed vampire charm looks like:

Charm. The vampire targets one humanoid it can see within 30 feet of it. If the target can see the vampire, the target must succeed on a DC 17 Wisdom saving throw against this magic or be charmed by the vampire. The charmed target regards the vampire as a trusted friend to be heeded and protected. Although the target isn't under the vampire's control, it takes the vampire's requests or actions in the most favorable way it can, and it is a willing target for the vampire's bite attack.

Each time the vampire or the vampire's companions do anything harmful to the target, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success. Otherwise, the effect lasts 24 hours or until the vampire is destroyed, is on a different plane of existence than the target, or takes a bonus action to end the effect.

Lo and behold, the 5e crew is capable of writing a proper charm effect; it's just much too effective for players to have.

Seriously, this is hilarious:

Dominate Person

5th-level enchantment

Casting Time: 1 action; Range: 60 feet; Components: V, S; Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You attempt to beguile a humanoid that you can see within range. It must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be charmed by you for the duration. If you or creatures that are friendly to you are fighting it, it has advantage on the saving throw.

While the target is charmed, you have a telepathic link with it as long as the two of you are on the same plane of existence. You can use this telepathic link to issue commands to the creature while you are conscious (no action required), which it does its best to obey. You can specify a simple and general course of action, such as “Attack that creature,” “Run over there,” or “Fetch that object.” If the creature completes the order and doesn’t receive further direction from you, it defends and preserves itself to the best of its ability.

You can use your action to take total and precise control of the target. Until the end of your next turn, the creature takes only the actions you choose, and doesn’t do anything that you don’t allow it to do.

During this time you can also cause the creature to use a reaction, but this requires you to use your own reaction as well.

Each time the target takes damage, it makes a new Wisdom saving throw against the spell. If the saving throw succeeds, the spell ends.

At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a 6th-level spell slot, the duration is concentration, up to 10 minutes. When you use a 7th-level spell slot, the duration is concentration, up to 1 hour. When you use a spell slot of 8th level or higher, the duration is concentration, up to 8 hours.

So, cast with a 9th level slot, Dominate Person lasts 1/3 as long as a vampire's charm, requires concentration, and the target gets a new save every time it takes damage. So, what level spell would a vampire's charm be? 15th? Lol. And it's an at-will ability.

This is just egregiously bad. Just screaming to be house-ruled.

Lanliss · Feb 13, 2016

Hmm, the wording on the Vampire is pretty vague. What if you are playing an evil PC who is likely to stab his friends? Sounds like a loophole. Also, I would say an 8th level spell slot for dominate person, since casting it with 9th is not any better than with 8th.

Illithidbix · Feb 13, 2016

What's the problem?
To me at least, they're two abilities that serve different functions in the game. I don't expect player/monster symmetry.

pming · Feb 13, 2016

Hiya!

Yeah, I think [MENTION=6776981]Morlock[/MENTION] may be under the impression that 5e is an "updated 3.x/4e". It's not. It is a new game system, built from the ground up, but with the combined veneer of BECMI/1e/2e and 3.x/PF/4e. In 5e, "balance" is closer to the original meaning of having a "well balanced campaign". That is, balance happens over the length of a campaign's life...not on a 1:1 comparison of classes, levels, races, spells, etc.

A Vampires Charm is, simply put, not the same as the Charm spell. Just look at 'human monsters' in the MM...like "Cult Fanatic", "Guard" and "Mage"; they don't follow the same rules as the classes they are similar to, or based on, out of the PHB. In this edition of the game, a PC's "Rage" doesn't have to be the same as the NPC Berzerker's "Rage".

That said, it is also one of the strengths of this edition; the ability to change, modify, nix or add whatever you want to make your campaign your own and fit you and your groups play style. If you don't like a 'nerfed' Charm...change it or go use whatever edition's version you do like. Personally, I have no problem with the 5e Charm spell(s). I like them more now, actually... Charm was always one of the most annoying spells to deal with as a DM or a player. Reducing the time and adding in the wonderful concentration mechanic makes it a spell that isn't instantly met with groans from both me or my players.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Jester David · Feb 13, 2016

Did you ever run a 3e or Pathfinder where the players make use of dominate?
Instant slave for days and just before it expires you cast it again and order them to fail the save.
Oh, and an enemy wizard can do it to the players.

The vampire's charm is handy, but it's just charmed like charm person. You can't command someone to obey. It's little more than a long lasting version of friends.

Morlock · Feb 13, 2016

A Vampires Charm is, simply put, not the same as the Charm spell

Correct. Vampire's charm is a real charm, while all the charms available to players are teh nerfed suck.

Did you ever run a 3e or Pathfinder where the players make use of dominate?
Instant slave for days and just before it expires you cast it again and order them to fail the save.
Oh, and an enemy wizard can do it to the players.

The vampire's charm is handy, but it's just charmed like charm person. You can't command someone to obey. It's little more than a long lasting version of friends.

The problem with your argument is: "fine, then my player will "suffer" with the "inferior" rewritten charm spells for players, which will "sadly" be "only as good" as the Vampire's charm. You can keep "Dominate Whatever," I don't want it."

See where I'm going with this?

and just before it expires you cast it again and order them to fail the save.

Allowing that kind of nonsense is a DM fail.

Morlock · Feb 13, 2016

Hmm, the wording on the Vampire is pretty vague. What if you are playing an evil PC who is likely to stab his friends? Sounds like a loophole. Also, I would say an 8th level spell slot for dominate person, since casting it with 9th is not any better than with 8th.

Nope. RAW state the specific overrides the general. Alignment is general, charm is specific.

(In other words, the spell makes the target interpret reality the way the DM interprets the spell)

(The idea that the target dictates what a charm spell does is funny though, kudos)

Lanliss · Feb 13, 2016

Morlock said:
Nope. RAW state the specific overrides the general. Alignment is general, charm is specific.

But the charm does not say you cannot attack the Vampire. "The vampire is viewed as a trusted friend". My question is, what if you stab your trusted friends? Clearly, as the Vampire is now on the list marked "friends" he is eligible to be stabbed, just like any other friend you have on the list.