Monte Cook On Fumble Mechanics

wedgeski · Feb 17, 2016

I don't have fumble tables or anything of the kind, but I must admit the temptation to throw a curve-ball at someone who rolls a nat-1 is impossible to resist, in the same way that turning a nat-20 into something memorable is impossible to resist.

wedgeski · Feb 17, 2016

Celebrim said:
No whatever spin you want to put on it, these are fumbles and they can open the door to even more interesting situations in the game.

Opening the box and finding something on fire when you expected to find gold is not the same as the whole table jeering at you when you roll a 1, and the DM gleefully unrolling his six page fumble table and demanding a d%. That's the difference the author is arguing, not some subtle point of definition.

Chimpy · Feb 17, 2016

I think "Interesting Complications" are much better than detrimental fumbles. Also, complications can occur on any skill check, not just a combat one.

pemerton · Feb 17, 2016

Ralif Redhammer said:
The way I see it, if you want the joy of a natural 20 in combat, you have to take the disappointment of a natural 1.

I don't really see why.

In 1st ed AD&D a roll of 1 on a saving throw always fails, but there is no rule that a natural 20 always succeeds. Symmetry doesn't have any particular virtue in this domain that I can see.

Allowing a nat 20 in combat to be a critical hit is basically giving the damage output of attacks a non-linear range - it's mostly linear but with a spike at one extreme. Whether or not this is a good mechanic - and in my experience with it in 4e it doesn't seem to do any harm - is independent of whether or not there is some corresponding spike at the bottom of the "miss" range.

I've played a lot of RM (which is where the MERP table has its origins), and it is not symmetrical at all. In RM, nearly all successful attacks trigger rolls on a crit table, but only a small number of failed attacks trigger rolls on the fumble table.

I really don't think the symmetry you call for has any special significance in designing RPG mechanics.

delericho · Feb 17, 2016

pemerton said:
I don't really see why.

...

I really don't think the symmetry you call for has any special significance in designing RPG mechanics.

Yep, I agree with this. Symmetry has a certain attraction to the bit of me that likes things neat and orderly, but I've seen enough to realise that "neat and orderly" isn't necessarily a virtue in game design.

Morrus · Feb 17, 2016

delericho said:
Yep, I agree with this. Symmetry has a certain attraction to the bit of me that likes things neat and orderly, but I've seen enough to realise that "neat and orderly" isn't necessarily a virtue in game design.

Me too. Symmetry is a perfectly normal human aesthetic preference, but that's all it is. Symmetrical things aren't necessarily the best things. Whatever works for the game, not whatever satisfies my need for symmetry!

Sadras · Feb 17, 2016

delericho said:
Symmetry has a certain attraction to the bit of me that likes things neat and orderly, but I've seen enough to realise that "neat and orderly" isn't necessarily a virtue in game design.

Exactly, Quadratic Wizards were fun....remember all that crazy talk about needing class balance, so much poppy-cock! :devil:

Cor Azer · Feb 17, 2016

To be fair, there is symmetry - both PCs and NPCs can score critical hits.

Aldarc · Feb 17, 2016

I find some of the harsh criticism of Monte Cook's article to be unwarranted, as the criticism seems divorced from the medium and context: i.e. a friendly, light-weight article on the MCG website meant to promote the MCG Cypher System design philosophy. It's not a scathing indictment of the critical fumble that people make it out to be. After all, the article begins with a prefacing note that "it’s a funny moment, and we’ve all been there" before also noting that the natural 1/critical fumble "has some negative connotations," which it undoubtedly does. It may have been too absolute to say "Bruce feels bad" instead of "Bruce may feel bad." And one may say that he moved the argument to a position of feels, which some gamers likely believe to be irrelevant, but it is something which a smart party and GM should be cognizant about since it affects group dynamics. It does not affect everyone or every group the same way, but it should be monitored, especially if it has a long-term negative impact on player enjoyment.

Also, one may argue that if the Natural 1 is no longer a critical fumble, then the Natural 20 should not be a critical or automatic hit. Okay. Well, perhaps it would help to know more about the Cypher System first, since a Natural 20 is not an automatic success like it is in some systems. One can roll a Natural 20 and still fail to hit the Level 7+ monster. The only "automatic success" in the game is if you lower the difficulty rating of a check to 0, as in you don't have to bother rolling at all. And a Natural 20 is only a "critical" to the extent that it gives the player the option of either +4 damage or a major effect (temporary blind, disarm, etc.). But players also receive a +1 damage bonus on a Natural 17, a +2 damage bonus on a Natural 18, and a +3 damage bonus or minor effect on a Natural 19. There is no symmetry with the d20 roll in the Cypher System.

Furthermore, rolling a Natural 1 is not a critical fumble/failure, nor should it be treated as one in the context of the Cypher System. A GM intrusion, however, represents a greater degree of narrative flexibility in convey that Natural 1. If all Natural 1s are critical fumbles and automatic failures, then that limits the narrative. But a GM intrusion can not only be a critical fumble but also a myriad host of other narrative complications. The player may even succeed at that skill check with that Natural 1, but in the process alert the attention of the guards.

Gargoyle · Feb 17, 2016

I get what Monte is saying. They aren't always fun for players or DMs, and they aren't always as fun as we remember them in hindsight.

Critical fumbles can be great fun and everyone has a story about how Joe the Barbarian accidentally cut off the head of Bob the cleric, or how Sheila shot Paul while shooting into melee, or how a botched spell caused the fireball to ignite on the party. Good times.... at least, in nostalgia, maybe not at the time. My problem is when they are too frequent or they are too damaging or both. Players shouldn't be too upset to roll a 1 because over the course of a campaign they are going to roll at lot of them. Also chances are, one player will roll worse than others and suffer most of the effects of fumbles, and depending on their personality it might be very annoying to them.

Five percent of the time is too often, as players typically roll a lot of attacks, especially the non casters. Systems that require one to confirm the critical are better, but you run the risk of never seeing a fumble at higher levels when hitting is easy. A saving throw or ability check to avoid the fumble might be better.

The other problem is that of fumbles that are too damaging. When limbs are being cut off, or player characters killed, it may raise a chuckle 10 years later, but at the time, it's often not as fun. It's also jarring and non-heroic when hordes of orcs barely dent your group but your healer struggles to reattach the leg that just got cut off by an errant battle axe, or the super genius wizard never gets a spell to work all night. Better to have those accidental hits strike NPC's or perhaps have weapons blunted to do less damage temporarily or some other less serious outcome, or for spells just add some wild magic style effect.

As a DM I neither embrace nor outlaw fumbles and go with rulings over rules. If a player character rolls a 1 and I think of something interesting to happen, it happens. Same with a roll like a 2 or 3. I might let the make an ability check to avoid or mitigate the outcome. Or I might just say "you miss" and move along. The risk of course is that I might appear unfair, but I haven't had that complaint yet and it keeps things moving and still allows for some unpredictability, so it works for our table. If an NPC rolls a 1, there is much more of a chance for a fumble, and certainly if I think of something entertaining.