We're All Gamers Together: Why Harassment Has To Stop - Page 56
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  1. #551
    I think the main points have been made here, and much of the discussion is going around in circles with the same few people.

    1) harassment is bad and policies addressing it do not have to be fair and reach criminal standards of innocent until proven guilty. A credible accusation can enough to take action and removing the person from the con is reasonable action.

    2) there is a small but not zero chance that such a policy can be abused, but the risk is worth the result

    3) the goal is not to fix the world, rather to make cons and gaming stores safer places to play games.

    4) the conversation here has been remarkably polite for this type of topic and that is one of the two ways to change the world, and I applaud even the posters I disagree with. (The other way to change the world is applied violence and the does not really work in an online forum).

    5) even I who am quite pro remove even with accusation only respect the concerns of those here that worry about the edge cases where abuse might happen
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  2. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWizardInDallas View Post
    ...and less appealing to others, which is me. Not much really, since consumers today enjoy being pandered to and don't really consider purchases on an intellectual basis, i.e do I really need this? I'm simply more discerning.
    "Discerning". A useful word. I'll have to teach it to a four year old I know who refuses to eat anything that isn't smothered in ketchup so it tastes the same as everything else to say that he's discerning. And that he considers what he eats on an intellectual basis and doesn't actually need variety in what he eats - just that it has enough nutrients. And that he can complain that other people are being pandered to whenever the mother tries to put something spicy or full of garlic or even crisp on the table.
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  3. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elf Witch View Post
    You realize that it is not just Gamer gurrl as you call us complain about being harassed so have people of color and LGBTQ people. This is not just about women it is about protecting everyone right to not be harassed at an event and that includes straight white guys as well.
    Kind of a straw man argument, No one here is suggesting that and I in fact said the exact opposite, that a Con ought to have a written policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elf Witch View Post
    If someone reports a case of harassment then it is the duty of the people to address it. If they have no evidence because no one saw it then they can warn the person to stay away from the person making the complaint and keep a closer eye on him.

    No disagreement here . its pretty much what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elf Witch View Post

    I am really tired of the excuse that harassers don't know better and are socially awkward. I used to be shy and socially awkward but I knew touching someone without their permission was wrong I knew calling out nasty things to them was wrong and I knew that when someone asked me to stop bothering them that I should.
    Again not what I said, harassment has to be properly defined and I have no issue stopping it . However it usually caused buy the people in the hobby who in fact do have poor social skills or autism or the like. A Cat P*ss man and Cat P*ss women is a stereotype for a reason. That said we don't in principle disagree, if peopel can't keep it together, kick them out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elf Witch View Post

    So being inclusive and accepting diversity in our hobby is ruing the fun? So darn those women and minorities for wanting to be included in the fun and maybe if people would just allow them to have fun too without bullying there would be no need to beat on the drum.
    At a Con, its up to the organizers to determine who they want. This is not my choice to make since i won't be attending but when they make the call if they'll have to way the chance that pursing one agenda keeps people with different views away.

    In any case Cons are not full of newbs just waiting to join our dorky hobby , everyone knows what D&D is and being welcoming won't accomplish anything. Its not a useful goal in and off itself, homogeneity is strength, not diversity

    That said race and creed are no bar and more smart gamers are always welcome at my table. The problem to me is SJW entryism not race and creed . You see this isn't about Cons where there is a legitimate reason to have a standard but its about directing the gaming hobby, its products and identity the way they like. The long march is action.

    Personally I've gamed with very diverse groups, gay/straight male/female 4 or 5 different religions multiple races all at once. It was very cool.

    But here is the thing it was NOT inclusive at all. It was a monoculture, all of us gamers interested in the same sort of gaming. That is why it worked, because roots and bones it wasn't diverse,

    If this means me not allowing any person or group that doesn't fit at my table so be it. Its not your problem, the hobbies problem, its not a problem at all .

    However if you personally think its an issue, put an add online, start a group and go play. If I was at your table, I'll play by your rules.gladly. Keep in mind I love Blue Rose who knows it might work

    And if it doesn't, you'd be right to kick me out. No hard feelings.

  4. #554
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    @Ace - this isn't about home games. This is about public spaces. Always has been. So why are you talking about home games?

    Now, if I want my group to be a dudes club and I want to revel in Golden Age fantasy tropes with all the bigotry and misogyny that entails, more power to me.

    But, in public spaces? In game books that are meant for general consumption? Not a bloody chance. No way. It's completely unacceptable.
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  5. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWizardInDallas View Post
    Ugh. I was asked to elaborate. I did that. I recently dropped the published game world I was using and am indeed using my own material.
    Yes, you dropped Pathfinder because they published material featuring "teh gays". But you TOTALLY arent homophobic. You just prefer everyone to be straight and white... to the point that you cant stomach even changing material that isnt.
    Last edited by ehren37; Monday, 11th April, 2016 at 03:26 AM.

  6. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWizardInDallas View Post
    Yep, which is what I meant earlier by pandering.
    So if game designers make products that fit what you want this is business but if they make products that other people want that is pandering? You can't see what is wrong with that? Tell me if a restaurant what has never served vegetarian meals decides that they want to start serving them to attract more customers is that pandering or just good business practices?


    Quote Originally Posted by Taneras View Post
    I disagree that a dongle joke (I have a big dongle - I believe was the effect of the joke) is comparative to a racist joke making fun of black people.

    So what about my kitchen joke that I might have made to my wife. That's one of my original examples that you said I was over reacting about. Couldn't that be seen as a sexist joke? Couldn't that make a female, or even a male, uncomfortable?



    I'm concerned about a knee jerking reaction that creates overboard policies that include what I've already mentioned. And I don't think that I'm being paranoid because I've already seen it happen with some of my other hobbies/interests. Atheism, for example, has issues with it. For the record I'm not trying to derail and discuss religion, I have no issue with personal supernatural beliefs so long as everyone's rights are respected. But some atheist conventions have gotten that bad, even canceling certain speakers, for petty comments. In an attempt to create a safer and more friendly space, they've gone overboard with super strict policies that have honestly created more problems than they have solved.

    I think there's a way to create policies that don't over reach. And I hope that's what's done. I'd hate to be asked to leave an event because of a joke I made with my wife or I uttered the word "crazy".



    That's the definition of sexism, creating different standards of behavior for each gender. I don't think what's between your legs should have any bearing on what you're allowed to do.



    Then its probably a very small store operated environment. I can't imagine this would occur at a large convention. Has it?



    And I agree 100%, I'd have no issue with a woman wanting to run an all female table top campaign so long as we apply the same standards to men.
    Some women are uncomfortable listening to men talk about their penis in a sexual manner some men are too. When you are in a public place you need to be aware that you share that space without people. If I am at event sitting behind someone at a panel or a gaming table and they start making sexual jokes and I become uncomfortable it should be okay for me to ask them to stop. And if they don't then I need to bring in someone in charge. Here is why you ,can't make a case that if you can't talk about the size of your penis the event is going to be ruined for you but you could be ruining the event for me.

    I actually had something similar happen to me I was in a restaurant with a friend who had just buried her infant daughter. The guys behind us were making dead baby jokes normally I don't care about jokes like that. I asked them very politely to stop explaining the situation and they got all butt hurt and started getting louder. So I went to the manager to ask to be moved. Since there was no open seats and our food was coming out he went to the table to ask them to stop and when they got nasty with him he threw them out.

    You make a joke with your wife and it is overheard the situation then depends on where are you sitting was it heard in passing are you all at a gaming table together sitting next to each other in a panel. I can't think of any con committee that is going to step in over a joke like that heard in passing if they do it would simply be to ask you to watch your comments. Now if you are sort of trapped together and the other people make it clear that they are uncomfortable and ask you to stop and you don't that is harassment. Again for the same reason you don't need to make jokes like that to enjoy the event. Though I think most people understand the difference between two people joking and some sexist idiot using get back into the kitchen as a way to silence a woman who is stating her opinion.

    Actually the definition of sexism is more than that. But what you keep refusing to see is this as long as inequality exist you sometimes have to make exceptions for the group facing the inequality. As I keep saying women are in the minority of gaming because of that you may have to make exceptions like an all female game. If you had a group of newbies and a DM wanted to run a game only for them I doubt people would protest why because there would be plenty of other games for experienced players to find to play in.

    You keep saying that you want to prevent a knee jerk reaction but you keep coming up with examples that are examples of knee jerk reaction.

    BTW how is it unfair if an event has 60 games running and only 1 is female only? How is that putting out any male player at all? If someone said we are going to have 60 games and 1 table only for gays. or 1 table only for men I don't think most people would make a fuss. I am sure some would because they made a fuss over 1 game out of 60.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rygar View Post
    You're apparently not familiar with Tumblr. Facts, Truth, those things are not ideals Tumblr is well known for. Tumblr is well known for factual incorrectness, misrepresenting/skewing data, and outright lies, then when caught it was all "To start a conversation".

    Anything on Tumblr should be immediately regarded as fiction.
    And you ignoring all the other places including the Washington Post where this has been discussed. You are basically calling the women and men here on Enworld liars too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxperson View Post
    I'm not seeing how being asked to leave a convention is going to convince a woman who is already willing to come forward, not to come forward. If it's genuine and she's willing to come forward, the fair consequence if being asked to leave is a blip. I'm also only for the mutual eviction if there is no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the accused. If there is, then she should not be asked to go.

    If it's he said, she said, then both should go or neither should go. Fair is fair.
    Seriously let me ask you this some person steals your wallet and you go to report it and by the time con security and the police catch up with the thief he no longer has it and no one saw him take it but you how would you feel after having your wallet stolen you get kicked out of the event? Fair is fair right? What about your daughter or son coming up to you and tell you that they have been groped by an adult but they can't prove it are you okay with your family getting kicked out? Fair is Fair right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanneliza View Post
    Yes please do stay with the hypotheticals with offering no opinion with an actual current event. Therein lies the problem, while people are arguing against disruption, dwelling on theoreticals actual people are being actually harassed into leaving a hobby that ,sorry perhaps my training in theater inspired a greater passion more quickly than is wont,but I truly do love and will miss. It is painful to know I may never be able to play again. So now you are not talking hypotheticals and when you misquote me to support your hypothetical you did the exact same thing the one hostile jerk did. Instead of facing real current suffering you hide in theoreticals. Please continue I won't burst your bubble.
    I don't know if it is possible to actually discuss this with this him he is so wrapped up in hypothetical situations that he can't see the forest for the trees. I have been trying for pages. I am really sorry this happened to you. I left gaming because of crap like this back in the 80s and didn't come back for ten years. I have left a lot of geek groups because of the sheer hate directed at me because of my gender. I am a huge comic book fan but I got tired of having to justify my presence to the gatekeepers wanted me to prove my geek cred.

    I made the mistake of sharing on my twitter a quote that Emma Watson shared that Alan Rickman had said that meant a lot to her after his death and my feed was slammed by angry cis white males calling me names, wishing death and rape and all kinds of nasty things on me. And not learning my lesson I shared on twitter that I was looking forward to the new Ghostbuster movie and hoped it would be good. Again my twitter feed was filed with angry cis white men and I was told I needed to die and other horrible things over a frakking movie. Which is why I have not said a peep about the Star Wars movie because these angry white man have won I know I am not welcome. And what really burns my butt is this I am older than a llot of them I have been into geek hobbies longer than some have been alive.

    And no I don't blame all cis white males only the ones doing it. My son is a cis white male and he hates these jerks almost as much as I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanneliza View Post
    So tell me then how do I address the bad behavior here without getting labeled a drama queen or attention seeker? How do I do this and ignore the fact that all those behind this were of one gender, and those who were shut out of a game or too intimidated to participate, or felt it was just not worth playing there once it was made clear by even a few they were not WANTED there were a different gender? How do I ignore the fact in defending myself that his argument was that by merely offering a single womens game with the pre-approval or the organizers, that I was painting a picture of the community as toxic/unsafe and that women needed a safe place? When not once in the over the year I have been active there have I ever said or suggested such a thing? Those were HIS words not mine.
    I wish I could answer this for you and it truly saddens me that this is still going on. I wrote in the other thread that back in the days of first edition I was playing in a game at a store when the DM decided to have my PC raped an dexpected me role play it out. I tried to reason with him explaining how uncomfortable I was and he mocked me and I ended up crying and this made a few of the guys at the table leave others joined him in making fun of me. Th upshot was I was banned from the store for disrupting the game. I am cannot believe some thirty years later this crap is still happening to women.
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  7. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaPilot View Post
    Serious question:

    What is the difference between pandering and adding features to make your product appeal to additional consumers?
    Its pandering it it's not to a white dude, duh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dannager View Post
    We already have a problem with harassment being underreported. This will only make it worse. Many women would undoubtedly choose not to report even moderate harassment incidents because they don't want to deal with the disruption it might cause if they can't show evidence of it taking place.

    Stop being concerned with what seems superficially "fair". It's time to start looking at the bigger picture.
    It's more than about fairness, and it's far from superficial. False accusations are criminal in many cases, as in every case where someone is at risk of criminal prosecution. That's not something to be swept under the rug.

    When I was in my early 20's, a woman I lived with who is also a gamer, accused me of assault and battery. Apparently she thought that she could just not prosecute, so she called the police. Well, O.J. happened and the law was changed so that it wasn't up to the woman any longer. This was on the 4th of July and the 5th was a Friday. I spent 4 days in jail waiting for Monday to come along all because a woman decided to falsely accuse me of something I didn't do.

    Don't tell me that it's superficially fair to even things up in order to discourage that from happening to someone else. A woman who was really assaulted will be more likely to accuse the perpetrator with that fairness in place, then a woman who is going to falsely accuse a man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanneliza View Post
    How do I ignore the fact in defending myself that his argument was that by merely offering a single womens game with the pre-approval or the organizers, that I was painting a picture of the community as toxic/unsafe and that women needed a safe place?
    Certainly, if I was a con-organiser and I was asked to provide a woman's only game, it would be natural for me to check whether this was because women felt the open games were un-safe/toxic. As, of course, if that was the case I would want to do something about it.

    However, the possibility that others (i.e. men) might ask themselves whether or not this special game session says something about how women feel about the community, is no reason to refuse the game session.

    As an academic, I am sometimes involved in organising academic conferences. Even though the conferences are open to all, we frequently have special social events for various groups: "women", "PhD students", "alumini of particular institutions", etc. This doesn't imply that "women", or the other categories are discriminated against in the open events. The special events are just an opportunity for people to meet and socialise and talk with others of similar interests and experiences.

    So, having a woman's only game, should not be any more controversial than having say "a 4E game", or "a game for out-of-town visitors to the con", or "a game for under 18 year olds", or "a game where all the PCs are elves", etc. Providing an opportunity for women to play a game together at a con seems like a truly excellent idea to me.

    In fact, having a woman's only event really paints the opposite picture of the con. A woman's only session is advertising that a) there are enough women attending to make this worthwhile, and b) that the con is thoughtfully providing opportunities for women gamers to meet and play games together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaPilot View Post
    Max, Dann, while I agree that it's needed to figure out what would be a good policy when no evidence is available, I think it's far more preferable to try to improve the availability of evidence, which is why I suggested significant video coverage.
    I'm conflicted. On one hand, I want things made safer for women. On the other hand, I really dislike big brother looking over my shoulder. This country has already lost too many freedoms in the name of safety. Freedom has costs, which could include me.

    Maybe cameras could be made available to women who want them and they could be given a sign warning people that being around them at the convention means that they are being taped.
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