Dice Pools, Grades, and Difficulties

Morrus · Apr 24, 2016

Primitive Screwhead said:
Then Fantasy Core, just downloaded, has the same example benchmark table error.

Yeah, that was in layout ages ago. Too late to change in time. But it'll go into the errata pass before the hardcover compilation.

Morrus · Apr 24, 2016

Taralan said:
It the intent is to have masterwork equioment more valable to experience character isin't the curent system coing thé reverse ?

This happenned in my startrek-tyoe game yesterday. The normal crew 4d with master sensors. (+1d) could reach 5d, the same as a beginning PC without the equipment who, we more experienced, could not make use of the equipment.

It's not that they can't make use if it - it's that they don't need it. The high quality stuff helps inexperienced users do stuff that experienced users can do with a bootstrap and an old tire iron. The idea is that the ultra elite of the universe can do with no gear what lesser mortals need equipment to help with.

It's very much designed to be the opposite of the "christmas tree" of magic items that 3.x characters had to have. In theory, you never need a magical item to a high quality piece of equipment.

Primitive Screwhead · Apr 25, 2016

Except that lesser mortals cannot benefit from the better gear.

Oh..bootstraps. so flip this. Lets say 5 grade character with 4d stat plus 3 dice skill and improvised equipment for -2 dice..= 5 dice right? Same character with mastercraft gear has.... 5 dice.

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Morrus · Apr 25, 2016

Honestly, if you want to play without the max dice pool, you can. I won't come to your house and stop you or anything!

Just be aware that it's there because otherwise things get very swingy and hard to predict. In my opinion, the game improved significantly when the max dice pool was introduced - it is an enormously helpful stabilising factor. Equipment is very deliberately de-emphasised in the game. Especially when you compare it to a D&D system which relies heavily on it. We don't want everybody running round with mastercraft gear by default, and grade 5 characters certainly shouldn't have it.

It's a very tweakable game though. If you want to emphasise gear more, you can certainly choose to add it after the dice pool max if you wish. As long as you're consistent, it should be fine if a bit more swingy.

Your example there is a very optimized grade 5 character. He has a 10 in the attribute (approaching peak human level) and 6 in a skill, as a starting character.

Instead, consider a non-optimized starting character. Say with 3d6 attribute and 1d6 in a skill. That's 4d6. A high quality item will help him. Your optimized example may find that at one task he doesn't need equipment, but not in the dozens of other tasks he might attempt.

Taralan · Apr 25, 2016

Morrus said:
It's not that they can't make use if it - it's that they don't need it. The high quality stuff helps inexperienced users do stuff that experienced users can do with a bootstrap and an old tire iron. The idea is that the ultra elite of the universe can do with no gear what lesser mortals need equipment to help with.
.

I don't think it matters much in practice because as you say masterwork equipment is much less important in this game than other (especially in NEW) but what you stated above, which I believe is right except for some corner case, seems directly contrary to what you stated earlier in this thread which is that only an experienced climber could make use of specialized and complicated equipment, which explained why the cap applied to the equipment dice.

Either masterwork equipment is supposed to be useful mostly to help unexoerienced character or on the contrary is supposed to be so complex that it can only be used by an expert, but I don't see how it can be both at the same time. Which one was the intent of the rule ?

And I don't want this to be viewed too negatively as I think you've created a great system, but I am just struggling with this from an analytical point of view.

Morrus · Apr 25, 2016

It can do both of those things - it's not a binary choice. It can help a lower skilled person fill up the dice pool and keep up with those who can do without the same equipment; or it can help an expert get an extra edge. The design intent, if there is one, is to allow various building blocks to achieve a goal, and equipment is one tool in that toolbox. One character might be a natural genius, another might be very well equipped, and they might both be able to approach a task in their own ways.

The main factor there is the attribute. The skill and gear are linked. But the attribute is separate. If you have a stacked attribute pushing towards your max dice pool, you probably laugh at those weak or untalented types who need special gear to do what you can do naturally.

I definitely don't think grade 5 characters should have mastercraft equipment. And legendary equipment might not even show up in the game - that's Excalibur and stuff. Unique stuff you need to be the best in the world at to really use.

Primitive Screwhead · Apr 25, 2016

Morrus said:
Honestly, if you want to play without the max dice pool, you can. I won't come to your house and stop you or anything!

Hey, you are welcome to stop by and join the game! Just pop across the pond anytime

Instead, consider a non-optimized starting character. Say with 3d6 attribute and 1d6 in a skill. That's 4d6. A high quality item will help him. Your optimized example may find that at one task he doesn't need equipment, but not in the dozens of other tasks he might attempt.

"Your optimized example may find that at one task he doesn't [strike]need[/strike] gain any benefit from equipment"...

An optimized Thief can use a bobby-pin or a fancy set of lock-picks with the same end result. If picking a fancy lock, circumstance penalty of -2d, the fancy lock-picks still don't help.
A non-optimized Thief feels a huge difference between using a bobby-pin, normal picks, and the fancy set. If picking a fancy lock, using fancy lock picks makes a lot of difference.

So I think, in my game, equipment quality will be applied after the MDP cap, and that High Quality items will be rare.

But, getting back on track.. the original problem wasn't equipment. It was the question of the dice cap making combat a flurry of misses against the melee defenses of the mooks...
To which your response is that you haven't settled completely on the calculation of mooks MDP, meaning that my current mooks are probably overpowered based on their defensive stats and should be de-leveled {or simply use exception based design and grant defense scores based on the mooks combat role}

Remember that every 6 does 1 damage anyway. It's impossible to completely SOAK all damage all day.

Huh? What? When?

Oh.. I see it now. -- Start at the 'on a successful hit', then skip over the 'magical attack' bold that looks like a header to get to the second paragraph.
Silly me, I thought reading the Injury & Death portion or in a portion titled 'All about SOAK, Vulnerabilities, and Immunities'. My bad.

Morrus · Apr 25, 2016

Capping monster defenses at the MDP would solve your problem. So take the MDP, multiply by 3.5 (or 4, if you want to skew it a tiny bit harder) and that's your max defenses for the critter (before size adjustment of course).

It works perfectly. I just worry that will make monsters too uniform and balanced, and ultimately a little boring. I might do that but note in the monster creation rules that a GM should not hesitate to break that guideline if the flavour says otherwise. We still want it to be difficult to shoot a fly with pistol.

I did adjust the gibberling defenses, BTW. Thanks for that bit of feedback. The gibberlings in the adventure were a little too tough for grade 5 characters.

User_Undefined · Apr 27, 2016

After giving it some thought, I decided I'm also going to add equipment dice after the pool cap. The equipment dice is still going to be limited by skill dice though. Just because you put me in an F1 car doesn't mean I'll be able to drive like Hamilton or Vettel. But if you give an experienced rock climber and someone who's never climbed, but is very agile, the same high quality gear, I don't think they should both have an equal chance to get to the top first. Just wanted to share my thoughts.

Primitive Screwhead · Apr 28, 2016

Damn Microsoft! Retyping this post off-line so I don't lose it again when my browser decides to just stop.

I have been thinking about the attack vs defense cap issue as I have a game this Friday that is mostly combat.

The obvious answer to an artifical cap on the attack is to add an artifical cap on defense.

So here is my thought, assign monsters a 'role' that determines how their defenses are capped:

- High = Grade * 4
- Medium = Grade * 3
- Low = Grade * 2
{and of course, you need 10 or better to hit no matter what the Defense score is}

Melee Monster: Melee Def High, Ranged Def Med, Mental Def Low
Ranged Monster: Melee Def Low, Ranged Def High, Mental Def Med
Caster Type: Melee Def Low, Ranged Def Med, Mental Def High
Special: Two defenses at Medium, One defense at Low.
- - This type's defenses are usually offset by something like a higher soak {Brute}, a higher damage {glass cannon}, or advantagous movement modes

An 'Elite' Monster can bump a Medium or Low defense up by 4 points. These monsters tend to be 'Named' NPCs and have a set-piece battle designed around them.
As these are defense score caps, the creatures stats and skills still come into play.

Looking at the Calrow Ruins and applying these caps you would get:

Gibberling {4d6} as a Melee monster

Code:

Melee: 25	-> 16
Ranged: 22	-> 12
Mental: 10	-> 8 {still 10}
[code]

Gibberling Brood Mother {6d6} as Melee monster
[code]
Melee: 25	-> 24
Ranged: 18	-> 18
Mental: 11	-> 11 {cap of 12}

From the Bestiary, the Amazon {6d6} as a Ranged monster:

Code:

Melee: 28	-> 18
Ranged: 23	-> 23
Mental: 18	-> 12 {cap of 12}

and the Arch-Mage {8d6} as a Caster

Code:

Melee: 18	-> 16
Ranged:23	-> 23 {cap of 24}
Mental: 28	-> 28 {cap of 32}

- Side note: He is listed with a High Quality Staff but doesn't have a staff weapon skill.

Encounter-wise, a starting group of 5th Grade PCs could take on the Arch-Mage.. but would not do well trying magic against him. It looks like you could go 3 or 4 grades up or down and still be viable combat encounters.