5E Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged. - Page 73
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  1. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
    Sorry, but I just can't seem to get over the fact that me and my various tables have been playing 5e all wrong this whole time. Our not finding ranged to be substantively better than melee clearly stems from our own lack of awareness and understanding. I mean, we just haven't experienced it. And that's on us. Not even after the alt-human hand crossbow rogue we had in the game for quite a while. Or my buddy's awesome sorlock. Not even our current wood elf archer ranger. None of it has broken our table. So I must apologize, for all of us, who have failed. Failed to experience this phenomenon. Our bad. I vow we will try harder to achieve this breakthrough in game-ruinedness. Come heck or high water. We will find a way to enjoy 5e less for these tragic and glaring faults. This I promise you.
    You are simply....unenlightened.

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  2. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashkelon View Post
    It also seems like your players are not the best optimizer as a rancher archer (who doesn't use hand crossbows) or a hand crossbow using rogue are not on the same level of damage output as a handcrossbow fighter, so for your group, you will not notice the true potential of a fully optimized ranged build.
    Well to be fair, the rancher archer has to devote skills and feats to properly running and managing a ranch as well as archery. Those cows aren't going to herd themselves.
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  3. #723
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    You are simply....unenlightened.

    So the person, who's handle indicates they are infatuated with one of the most iconic archers in pop culture, is espousing the virtues of ranged combat. Yeah. You are simply....transparent.


  4. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
    So the person, who's handle indicates they are infatuated with one of the most iconic archers in pop culture, is espousing the virtues of ranged combat. Yeah. You are simply....transparent.

    Oh sweet irony!
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  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
    So the person, who's handle indicates they are infatuated with one of the most iconic archers in pop culture, is espousing the virtues of ranged combat. Yeah. You are simply....transparent.

    Hey, he could be a big fan of Alan Alda from hit TV series M*A*S*H*.
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  6. #726
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iguanacus View Post
    Hey, he could be a big fan of Alan Alda from hit TV series M*A*S*H*.
    Or maybe even an enthusiast of ocular organs from raptors!

  7. #727
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnZapp View Post
    it (again to me) would feel like a huge usability win for the Monster Manual if player damage was kept from GWM levels (whether thru that feat or cantrip alternatives).
    If @Hemlock is right, though, then other PC builds get to those damage levels anyway - so if you nerf the -5/+10 you don't preserve the relevance of the MM, you just reduce the relevance of fighters. (And after typing this but before posting, I've got to your post 716. The task of lowering "par" is interesting, but I don't have anywhere near the grasp of the system to contribute meaningfully to that discussion. But happy to follow along and chime in if others are taking the issue up.)

    Quote Originally Posted by CapnZapp View Post
    The first that strikes me is the sadness of seeing the possibility that somebody (not saying this is you P) has resigned himself to the notion that any fighter NOT using a greatweapon (or crossbow) is irrelevant, or at least does irrelevant amounts of damage, which amounts to pretty much the same thing.

    Retaining the +10 damage for some, but not all weapons, feels to me to throw out the baby (the relevance of other weapons and combos such as Drizzt or Zorro) with the bathwater (allowing martials to keep up with cantrip-based "weaponry").
    I understand this point - as you've stated it here, in posts 709 and 712, and elsewhere in the thread.

    I don't have an answer to it. But wasn't @Celtavian house-ruling some -5/+10 feats for other fighting styles?
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  8. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashkelon View Post
    Just because you haven't noticed or choose not to perceive a problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
    You know, Ashkelon, there really isn't much to be gained by responding to a post like that. It's a textbook example of the passive aggressive. It's meant to refocus the discussion away from the subject matter at hand; it's quite often successful in baiting people into make personal attacks.

    My best advice is to consider such posts irrelevant and simply ignore them.

    For those of us who are aware of the problem of ranged superiority and who actually care about this issue, it is a fairly big problem. After all, by playing my greatsword fighter I am self imposing a 20% damage penalty on myself simply because I chose not to wield a hand crossbow. On top of that, I also am required to fight foes in melee whereas the hand crossbow fighter can fight enemies in melee just as well as my greatsword fighter, but also at a range of 120 feet. From a logical point, there is no reason at all to play a mere greatsword fighter given the vast superiority of the hand crossbow. Each session, my character is letting my party down by not being as effective as he possibly can be.
    The next step for me is to release a new feat review, this time of my own feat workshop feats.

    But what I would like to finish here first is to learn more of the claim "fighters need the extra damage".

    What specific other builds are these fighters competing with? So far, Hemlock has suggested the Sorlock, which seems reasonable. It also points me in the direction of a single mechanic: the cantrip (and obviously Eldritch Blast).

    Might this be all? Will fighters be satisfied if cantrips are also nerfed? Can other spellcaster builds survive even cantrips are nerfed?
    Last edited by CapnZapp; Thursday, 5th January, 2017 at 01:38 AM.
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  9. #729
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    *Hemlock appears in a puff of smoke, in response to @ mention*

    Quote Originally Posted by pemerton View Post
    If @Hemlock is right, though, then other PC builds get to those damage levels anyway - so if you nerf the -5/+10 you don't preserve the relevance of the MM, you just reduce the relevance of fighters. (And after typing this but before posting, I've got to your post 716. The task of lowering "par" is interesting, but I don't have anywhere near the grasp of the system to contribute meaningfully to that discussion. But happy to follow along and chime in if others are taking the issue up.)
    Currently there are three ways I can think of to get massive at-will or virtually at-will damage in 5E. (Caveat: I don't consider DPR to be the most important statistic, but it is what you guys are talking about so here we go.) Roughly in order of most to least effective:

    1.) Minions can make you do 2x to 100x as much damage as a normal PC. Necromancer skeletons, druids with a bag of rats and Animal Shapes to turn them all into rhinos, druids that Planar Bind a ton of hags and have them all form covens and spam dozens of Lightning Bolts per turn, etc. Can easily do hundreds of points of damage per turn against AC 20 by level 20.

    2.) Quickened Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast plus appropriate spells can make you do around 1.5x to 3x as much damage as a normal PC. By level 20, can easily do 100+ points of damage per turn against AC 20 if an external ally grants advantage somehow.

    3.) GWM or Sharpshooter plus appropriate spells and magic items can make you do around 1.5x to 2x as much damage as a normal PC. By level 20, can easily do 75ish points of damage per turn against AC 20 if a Crossbow Expert Fighter with advantage.

    Oh, and of course there's also (4) the "massive magic item" route which I tend to forget about--a 20th level Fighter using a +3 Flametongue longsword and Dueling style (d8+3+2d6 fire+STR+2) can do 85ish damage against AC 20 when he has advantage, and still have his bonus action left over, e.g. for a GWM extra attack (106 damage). I tend to forget about magic items.

    In contrast, a 20th level Thief with a nonmagical crossbow would be doing around 41 points of damage under the same conditions (advantage, vs. AC 20), a Dueling style 20th level Fighter would also be doing 40ish points of damage per round, a regular non-tricked-out Warlock just doing Hex + Agonizing Blast would be doing 50 points, a Dragon Sorcerer would be doing 25 points, a non-GWM 20th level Berserker would be doing around 45 points when Frenzying and 30 points when he's not, and a Paladin would do about 30 points with a greatsword or 29 with Dueling style and a longsword.

    So if you eliminate minions, eliminate at-will cantrips, and eliminate Sharpshooter and GWM, and don't hand out any powerful magic items, you probably would get pretty close to having all PCs do approximately the same damage (30-45 DPR), except of course for spellcasters who would now be on the bottom rung unless expending spell slots.
    Last edited by FormerlyHemlock; Thursday, 5th January, 2017 at 03:42 AM.
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  10. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by pemerton View Post
    I don't have an answer to it. But wasn't @Celtavian house-ruling some -5/+10 feats for other fighting styles?
    I grant -5/+5 for any and all weapons with no feat required. Sharpshooter and GWM just increase the potential payoff to the point where it becomes tactically relevant.
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