D&D 5E Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.
- Thread starter Horwath
- Start date
Well to be fair, the rancher archer has to devote skills and feats to properly running and managing a ranch as well as archery. Those cows aren't going to herd themselves.
So the person, who's handle indicates they are infatuated with one of the most iconic archers in pop culture, is espousing the virtues of ranged combat. Yeah. You are simply....transparent.You are simply....unenlightened.
hawkeyefan
Legend
So the person, who's handle indicates they are infatuated with one of the most iconic archers in pop culture, is espousing the virtues of ranged combat. Yeah. You are simply....transparent.
Oh sweet irony!
So the person, who's handle indicates they are infatuated with one of the most iconic archers in pop culture, is espousing the virtues of ranged combat. Yeah. You are simply....transparent.
Hey, he could be a big fan of Alan Alda from hit TV series M*A*S*H*.
Or maybe even an enthusiast of ocular organs from raptors!
If [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] is right, though, then other PC builds get to those damage levels anyway - so if you nerf the -5/+10 you don't preserve the relevance of the MM, you just reduce the relevance of fighters. (And after typing this but before posting, I've got to your post 716. The task of lowering "par" is interesting, but I don't have anywhere near the grasp of the system to contribute meaningfully to that discussion. But happy to follow along and chime in if others are taking the issue up.)
I understand this point - as you've stated it here, in posts 709 and 712, and elsewhere in the thread.
I don't have an answer to it. But wasn't [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] house-ruling some -5/+10 feats for other fighting styles?
CapnZapp
Legend
You know, Ashkelon, there really isn't much to be gained by responding to a post like that. It's a textbook example of the passive aggressive. It's meant to refocus the discussion away from the subject matter at hand; it's quite often successful in baiting people into make personal attacks.
My best advice is to consider such posts irrelevant and simply ignore them.
The next step for me is to release a new feat review, this time of my own feat workshop feats.
But what I would like to finish here first is to learn more of the claim "fighters need the extra damage".
What specific other builds are these fighters competing with? So far, Hemlock has suggested the Sorlock, which seems reasonable. It also points me in the direction of a single mechanic: the cantrip (and obviously Eldritch Blast).
Might this be all? Will fighters be satisfied if cantrips are also nerfed? Can other spellcaster builds survive even cantrips are nerfed?
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FormerlyHemlock
Hero
*Hemlock appears in a puff of smoke, in response to @ mention*
Currently there are three ways I can think of to get massive at-will or virtually at-will damage in 5E. (Caveat: I don't consider DPR to be the most important statistic, but it is what you guys are talking about so here we go.) Roughly in order of most to least effective:
1.) Minions can make you do 2x to 100x as much damage as a normal PC. Necromancer skeletons, druids with a bag of rats and Animal Shapes to turn them all into rhinos, druids that Planar Bind a ton of hags and have them all form covens and spam dozens of Lightning Bolts per turn, etc. Can easily do hundreds of points of damage per turn against AC 20 by level 20.
2.) Quickened Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast plus appropriate spells can make you do around 1.5x to 3x as much damage as a normal PC. By level 20, can easily do 100+ points of damage per turn against AC 20 if an external ally grants advantage somehow.
3.) GWM or Sharpshooter plus appropriate spells and magic items can make you do around 1.5x to 2x as much damage as a normal PC. By level 20, can easily do 75ish points of damage per turn against AC 20 if a Crossbow Expert Fighter with advantage.
Oh, and of course there's also (4) the "massive magic item" route which I tend to forget about--a 20th level Fighter using a +3 Flametongue longsword and Dueling style (d8+3+2d6 fire+STR+2) can do 85ish damage against AC 20 when he has advantage, and still have his bonus action left over, e.g. for a GWM extra attack (106 damage). I tend to forget about magic items.
In contrast, a 20th level Thief with a nonmagical crossbow would be doing around 41 points of damage under the same conditions (advantage, vs. AC 20), a Dueling style 20th level Fighter would also be doing 40ish points of damage per round, a regular non-tricked-out Warlock just doing Hex + Agonizing Blast would be doing 50 points, a Dragon Sorcerer would be doing 25 points, a non-GWM 20th level Berserker would be doing around 45 points when Frenzying and 30 points when he's not, and a Paladin would do about 30 points with a greatsword or 29 with Dueling style and a longsword.
So if you eliminate minions, eliminate at-will cantrips, and eliminate Sharpshooter and GWM, and don't hand out any powerful magic items, you probably would get pretty close to having all PCs do approximately the same damage (30-45 DPR), except of course for spellcasters who would now be on the bottom rung unless expending spell slots.
Currently there are three ways I can think of to get massive at-will or virtually at-will damage in 5E. (Caveat: I don't consider DPR to be the most important statistic, but it is what you guys are talking about so here we go.) Roughly in order of most to least effective:
1.) Minions can make you do 2x to 100x as much damage as a normal PC. Necromancer skeletons, druids with a bag of rats and Animal Shapes to turn them all into rhinos, druids that Planar Bind a ton of hags and have them all form covens and spam dozens of Lightning Bolts per turn, etc. Can easily do hundreds of points of damage per turn against AC 20 by level 20.
2.) Quickened Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast plus appropriate spells can make you do around 1.5x to 3x as much damage as a normal PC. By level 20, can easily do 100+ points of damage per turn against AC 20 if an external ally grants advantage somehow.
3.) GWM or Sharpshooter plus appropriate spells and magic items can make you do around 1.5x to 2x as much damage as a normal PC. By level 20, can easily do 75ish points of damage per turn against AC 20 if a Crossbow Expert Fighter with advantage.
Oh, and of course there's also (4) the "massive magic item" route which I tend to forget about--a 20th level Fighter using a +3 Flametongue longsword and Dueling style (d8+3+2d6 fire+STR+2) can do 85ish damage against AC 20 when he has advantage, and still have his bonus action left over, e.g. for a GWM extra attack (106 damage). I tend to forget about magic items.
In contrast, a 20th level Thief with a nonmagical crossbow would be doing around 41 points of damage under the same conditions (advantage, vs. AC 20), a Dueling style 20th level Fighter would also be doing 40ish points of damage per round, a regular non-tricked-out Warlock just doing Hex + Agonizing Blast would be doing 50 points, a Dragon Sorcerer would be doing 25 points, a non-GWM 20th level Berserker would be doing around 45 points when Frenzying and 30 points when he's not, and a Paladin would do about 30 points with a greatsword or 29 with Dueling style and a longsword.
So if you eliminate minions, eliminate at-will cantrips, and eliminate Sharpshooter and GWM, and don't hand out any powerful magic items, you probably would get pretty close to having all PCs do approximately the same damage (30-45 DPR), except of course for spellcasters who would now be on the bottom rung unless expending spell slots.
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FormerlyHemlock
Hero
I grant -5/+5 for any and all weapons with no feat required. Sharpshooter and GWM just increase the potential payoff to the point where it becomes tactically relevant.
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