D&D 5E Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.

Tony Vargas

Legend
At 12 strength you speed drops 10ft at 60lbs, which archer type character wouldn't stand for. Studded leather, longbow and 40 arrows is 20lbs, the ubiquitous Adventurers Pack with Backpack, rope, water skin and belt pouch is 15 more, so you are 35 already. 25 lbs left over....
The basic encumberance rules are 15 lbs X strength score. So an archer with 12 strength carries 180 lbs without any problem....
Note: I have never been in a group that uses the optional encumberance rules.
So, clearly, optional or basic, encumbrance is not a meaningful issue 'balancing' archers. The archer can carry everything he needs, including scores of arrows, without being slowed down.

When you find you are having a problem with the rules, but the rules provide you with a way to help mitigate that "problem" baked right into them, who's fault is it really? I mean, really?
Doesn't seem relevant, since it's clear there's no such mitigation, at least, not to be found in the encumbrance options.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Re: encumberance

Ammunition just doesn't weight much at 20 arrows for 1 lbs or 20 bolts for 1 1/2 lbs. For a low level character, getting 2 attacks per round with crossbow expert, one set is 10 rounds of combat. Piece of cake to carry 2 for 20 rounds of maximum fire rate, more for less. Add in the recovery rules for fired ammo and just carrying 2 quivers or bolt cases is enough for an extended adventure. Go up a few levels and it gets harder, but so does the likelihood of a bag of holding or portable hole showing up. I track encumbrance in my games, but ammunition has been a problem exactly once for my players, and that was when an enemy thief stole weapons from the camp and our ranged rogue had to deal with only the few arrows left in their main quiver. I used to pay closer attention to it, but then the rogue and the ranger got a bag of holding and promptly stored 200 arrows in it. At 10 pounds, it puts little limit against the 500 lbs limit of the bag, and they have all stored arrows bundled tightly, not loose and ready to use, and dip into it for replenishing the active supply in their quivers as necessary.

Sure, I could press a set of encounters and maybe run the ranger out of arrows through continuous contact (ie, no time to reach into the bag, pull a bundle, slice the cords and take a minute to put it into the quiver), but that's not effort that makes sense just to make ammunition an issue. I'm fairly certain that this is the case for any archer build. Ammunition in D&D isn't a factor for any player that has a modicum of planning unless the DM is intentionally pushing that issue.

TL;DR: ammunition is, at best, a weak limit on ranged characters and does not offset anything. This doesn't construe an argument for or against ranged superiority, it merely contravenes the argument that ammunition is an actual impediment to ranged characters with a modicum of planning.
 

Feats are never really optional, everyone wants to use them for fun, and who hasn't had a MC character?
You are mistaken in this. The default game is no feats, no multiclassing, with simple encumbrance rules. If you want feats, there are rules to add them. If you want multiclassing, there are rules to add it. If you want encumbrance to be more detailed, there are rules to add complexity.

If you're not sure that you want one or more of those things, then your response should be to not change anything. If you change something without fully understanding it, or if you know that it's broken but you add it anyway, then you're just shooting yourself in the foot.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
TL;DR: ammunition is, at best, a weak limit on ranged characters and does not offset anything. This doesn't construe an argument for or against ranged superiority, it merely contravenes the argument that ammunition is an actual impediment to ranged characters with a modicum of planning.

Well there is no mechanical restriction for this beyond the encumbrance rules, about which you are correct, they will likely not limit anyone.

But what if the DM simply asks the player "So where does your character store all these arrows?" Would you guys all say that such a common sense type of approach is beyond the DM's ability? Or beyond the social contract aspect of the game that exists between players and DMs?

What does everyone think about that?
 

Corwin

Explorer
Doesn't seem relevant, since it's clear there's no such mitigation, at least, not to be found in the encumbrance options.
No, yes, really. We use the variant. Our current archer has to consider his max carry quite often. So it, in fact, does matter. To you, maybe not. But please don't speak for everyone. Especially not for [MENTION=6774887]Ashkelon[/MENTION]. After all, his table's archers carry around potentially 10 to 20 pounds worth of melee weapons, along with their armor, clothing, ammo, and adventuring gear. It all adds up rather quickly, IMX.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
RE: topic

I'm running a game with a rogue ranged focused character and a ranger with ranged focus. The rogue is entirely manageable (they usually get advantage from hiding, and usually get sneak attack, but that's perfectly fine. The ranger, though, I often joke that I have to add more bad guys just to offset the damage put out by the ranger. In reality, it's not to horrible, but she averages 40ish dpr a round since 5th level (magic bow, hunters mark, collossus slayer, 20 dex). The party is now 11th, and the battlemaster fighter is just now reaching something akin to parity in damage output with 3 attacks (he can burn superiority to go higher, of course). He's not max DPR, going shield master, dueling style, and using a pick, so he hits pretty often (often has advantage) and does d8+8 with his magic pick per attack, so right in the same ballpark. The difference I see, though, is that the battlemaster often loses an attack or can't make any attacks at all due to positioning. I don't run many fights at long range for the bows, and most start within 100' (most actually within 50'), but that single round or the need to reposition loses the melee fighter attacks. I'm generous with allowing multiple thrown weapons on a single interaction, so he has javelins (2) and hand axes (2) which he throws, and that helps as he often goads with those to control the field, but the ranger archer almost never cannot attack, so she manages a much better damage throughput. And this is without the ranger having sharpshooter (her choice) at all. IN fact, the ranger is built to do much more than just shoot things, and is a vital part of the exploration pillar of my game. If I had a player bring in an actually optimized ranged character, they would far outpace the others in contribution to combat (I'm a firm adherent that killing monsters faster is almost always the best tactical option due to the way D&D does hitpoints).

So, yeah, I see that ranged can be unbalancing to the game, if players feel like they should have fairly equal contributions. If they don't, or you, like me, have players that aren't that interested in optimization, then it's not much of an issue. But if there was a fix put in to "level" the field, then likely my players wouldn't notice. I will say that I nerfed sharpshooter earlier to remove the -5/+10 and add +1 DEX, so that may be why it hasn't been that attractive to my ranger. The rogue took it first chance, though, but mostly because that players HATES taking penalties in any form and would have taken the feat if it did nothing other than eliminate cover OR range penalties -- either would have been sufficient for him to take the feat. Heck, I could have made it two separate feats, one to eliminate cover and the other to eliminate range disad, and he'd have prioritized those feats anyway.

Long and short: I clearly see that ranged CAN be very destablizing to a game. Telling people who have this complaint that they should just change the way they play to accomodate the way the ruleset allows this is a bit annoying. Pointing out "hinderances" that really aren't is also a bit annoying. I don't have much of a dog in the fight other than to say that the rules do allow it to be out of hand, but that it's a specific table issue.

Don't get me started on the borkedness of sorlocks (a violently broken combination -- xd10+x*5+x*d6+10 ft pushback @ 600 feet range for the cost of 5 levels of Warlock and the spellsniper feat (either pushback OR 600ft range for 2 levels), up to twice a round AND synergizing with other area spells like wall of fire? Nope, not a cool combination.

And minions are right out.

But those two existing and be more egregious than the martial ranged vs melee disparity doesn't mean the ranged disparity doesn't exist or can't be an issue for some tables. All of them are rules failures.
 

Corwin

Explorer
Well there is no mechanical restriction for this beyond the encumbrance rules, about which you are correct, they will likely not limit anyone.

But what if the DM simply asks the player "So where does your character store all these arrows?" Would you guys all say that such a common sense type of approach is beyond the DM's ability? Or beyond the social contract aspect of the game that exists between players and DMs?

What does everyone think about that?
Nod. At best, additional quivers would likely be tucked away in a backpack for storage. So once the archer burns through his active quiver, if the combat isn't over yet, will need at least a round of ineffectualness gaining access to a fresh loadout.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Well there is no mechanical restriction for this beyond the encumbrance rules, about which you are correct, they will likely not limit anyone.

But what if the DM simply asks the player "So where does your character store all these arrows?" Would you guys all say that such a common sense type of approach is beyond the DM's ability? Or beyond the social contract aspect of the game that exists between players and DMs?

What does everyone think about that?

2 quivers, for 40 arrows, isn't outlandish (a hip quiver and a back quiver). A bundle of 40 more arrows tightly lashed to your pack is also not outlandish (or even much of a challenge). That's 40 arrows immediately available and another 40 available within a minute or two. This totally discounts any opportunity to pick over the combat to recover expended arrows, which, according to the basic rules, takes 1 minute and recovers half of your expended ammunition. So, given that, and the ability to recover ammunition, that's up to 120 potential shots worth of arrows easily carried without eyerolling.

A few moments of foresight and planning make ammunition moot without magic storage containers.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Nod. At best, additional quivers would likely be tucked away in a backpack for storage. So once the archer burns through his active quiver, if the combat isn't over yet, will need at least a round of ineffectualness gaining access to a fresh loadout.

How long are your combats? Serious question, because you're talking about 10's of rounds to go through 2 quivers of arrows unless your making 4 attacks a round, in which case you probable have a magical solution?

If this is a limit, it's only a limit on long combats, and it imposes a 1 round delay while the archer uses the rules to recover a stored item from their backpack.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
No, yes, really. We use the variant. Our current archer has to consider his max carry quite often. So it, in fact, does matter. To you, maybe not. But please don't speak for everyone.
You say it matters to you, and I'll accept that, but, please, don't presume to speak for everyone. ;P

Less subjectively, though, smbakeresq, above, added up the encumbrance of all the typical adventuring gear plus bow, plenty of arrows, and armor, and it was only 35 lbs, not encumbering even under the optional system.

Especially not for [MENTION=6774887]Ashkelon[/MENTION]. After all, his table's archers carry around potentially 10 to 20 pounds worth of melee weapons, along with their armor, clothing, ammo, and adventuring gear. It all adds up rather quickly, IMX.
That'd still fall short of encumbering even a 12 STR archer even under the optional encumbrance rules. So your snide accusation
Corwin said:
When you find you are having a problem with the rules, but the rules provide you with a way to help mitigate that "problem" baked right into them, who's fault is it really? I mean, really?
was completely off base.


RE: topic

I'm running a game with a rogue ranged focused character and a ranger with ranged focus. The rogue is entirely manageable (they usually get advantage from hiding, and usually get sneak attack, but that's perfectly fine. The ranger, though, I often joke that I have to add more bad guys just to offset the damage put out by the ranger. ...

So, yeah, I see that ranged can be unbalancing to the game, if players feel like they should have fairly equal contributions. If they don't, or you, like me, have players that aren't that interested in optimization, then it's not much of an issue.
5e calls back the feel of the classic game - and players of the classic game. ;) We may not have a lot of reason to expect archers to be 'overpowered' but we really shouldn't be too put off by it even if it works out that way, the expectation of relative equality is not something D&D has much fostered over the decades.

Long and short: I clearly see that ranged CAN be very destablizing to a game. Telling people who have this complaint that they should just change the way they play to accomodate the way the ruleset allows this is a bit annoying. Pointing out "hinderances" that really aren't is also a bit annoying.
Nod. It's a 'problem' for those who have a problem with it, and the non-solutions working for those who don't have a problem with it in the first place aren't going to help 'em.
 

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