D&D 5E Where does optimizing end and min-maxing begin? And is min-maxing a bad thing?

Redthistle · Mar 19, 2017

tglassy said:
Now, I could decide he's actually sickly like Raistlin, and drop his Con down to 8, and give two points to...well, it wouldn't help giving it to Int or Cha, cause those two points would only take it to an odd number.

Odd numbers are not a bad thing for a starting character. If you have a pair of them, you can use an ASI level to bump both scores by +1, and "Sha-zam!", two stats just improved their modifiers.

If your DM allows feats, a number of those give +1 to a single stat, and some other beneficial feature(s) get introduced.

Say your class doesn't grant proficiency in a saving throw ability you'd definitely appreciate it in.

For example, Sorcerer is the only spellcasting class that grants proficiency in Constitution saving throws. Is there any caster of Concentration-dependent spells that wouldn't like proficiency for those saves? The Resilient feat can give that to your PC, and if your Constitution score is odd, you can even it up for a modifier bump at the same time.

Imho, an odd number is just a sweetness waiting to happen.

CTurbo · Mar 19, 2017

My group consists of a Warforged Fighter that will use a Halberd. 16str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Char
A Half Elf Draconic Sorcerer 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 13 Wis, and 16 Char
A Half Elf archer Ranger 10 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 14 Wis, 10 Char
And my Human Cleric that will probably end up 16 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 16 Wis, 10 Char

As you can see, I did decide to trade +2 to Con for +2 to Dex AND +2 to Char to have a more well rounded character. I feel like the group will be on relatively equal footing. I may end up being both the party healer AND the party tank though with the Heavy Armor Master feat. I won't be a complete slouch in DPR with a steady 1d8+3 when I attack and the nice 2d8 reaction damage from getting hit x3 a long rest. I do think the Str Cleric meshes better with the group than the Dex Cleric would. Seems like the group would benefit more from a little more muscle.

Gardens & Goblins · Mar 19, 2017

''Where does optimizing end and min-maxing begin? And is min-maxing a bad thing?''

As soon as you pass into the hall of peer-judgment.

Satyrn · Mar 19, 2017

Tony Vargas said:
We could quibble over definitions all day, but this isn't 3.x with class Tiers and CoDzilla and the DM expected to respect the RAW. In 5e you can easily build a much better or worse character than the next guy, but it's a moot exercise - The DM will either run a good game or he won't. He'll either give each PC their turn in the spotlight, or he won't 't. If you find the optimization process engaging (I know I do) engage in it. Relatively speaking, it won't make the DM's job appreciably harder.

Huh. Your 5e description is my 3e DMing.

FitzTheRuke · Mar 19, 2017

CTurbo said:
My group consists of a Warforged Fighter that will use a Halberd. 16str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Char
A Half Elf Draconic Sorcerer 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 13 Wis, and 16 Char
A Half Elf archer Ranger 10 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 14 Wis, 10 Char
And my Human Cleric that will probably end up 16 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 16 Wis, 10 Char

As you can see, I did decide to trade +2 to Con for +2 to Dex AND +2 to Char to have a more well rounded character. I feel like the group will be on relatively equal footing. I may end up being both the party healer AND the party tank though with the Heavy Armor Master feat. I won't be a complete slouch in DPR with a steady 1d8+3 when I attack and the nice 2d8 reaction damage from getting hit x3 a long rest. I do think the Str Cleric meshes better with the group than the Dex Cleric would. Seems like the group would benefit more from a little more muscle.

Looks good to me.

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BoldItalic · Mar 19, 2017

CTurbo said:
My group consists of a Warforged Fighter that will use a Halberd. 16str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Char
A Half Elf Draconic Sorcerer 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 13 Wis, and 16 Char
A Half Elf archer Ranger 10 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 14 Wis, 10 Char
And my Human Cleric that will probably end up 16 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 16 Wis, 10 Char
...

Your cleric is a bit vulnerable to falling into traps that require a Dex save, but the others can maybe help you out. You might find yourself letting them down if the party needs to use Stealth. It's only marginal, but you might consider taking a background that gives you proficiency in Stealth, to compensate.

The group is not going to shine at Investigation and knowledge-based checks, but if the half-elves help each other out they will maybe do okay.

You are presumably relying on the Sorcerer for being the spokesman when it comes to Charisma checks but if you encounter NPCs who are wary of sorcerers, you may not make much headway with them.

Otherwise, it looks like you have a viable party. It all depends on how well you co-operate.

Nathal · Mar 19, 2017

CTurbo said:
...and I almost always dump Int unless I play a Wizard. Those are pretty much character building traits of mine. Of course I was going for maximum toughness on this specific Cleric.

I'm curious...Do you bother trying to roleplay the character according to the Int score you choose? Does anybody do so in your group?

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schnee · Mar 19, 2017

Optimizing is making choices that give a character a good theme that is mechanically effective. A small set of tools that gives you a few different 'hats' to wear.

Min-maxing is putting every single thing towards one thing, at the expense of being minimally effective at anything else. One-trick pony.

Whether it's a bad thing or not depends on your group.

If I were given those stats as a DM, I'd advise you to move some points around, because that character would be so good at a couple of things and so poor at the others that it would be less fun - you'd slaughter challenges that other characters would struggle with, which would force me to mix in different ones that you'd basically fail immediately. All or nothing isn't very fun.

FitzTheRuke · Mar 19, 2017

schnee said:
Optimizing is making choices that give a character a good theme that is mechanically effective. A small set of tools that gives you a few different 'hats' to wear.

Min-maxing is putting every single thing towards one thing, at the expense of being minimally effective at anything else. One-trick pony.

Whether it's a bad thing or not depends on your group.

If I were given those stats as a DM, I'd advise you to move some points around, because that character would be so good at a couple of things and so poor at the others that it would be less fun - you'd slaughter challenges that other characters would struggle with, which would force me to mix in different ones that you'd basically fail immediately. All or nothing isn't very fun.

That's how I see it.

It's certainly fine to play that way, if your group likes. Heck, if everyone in the party is jacked to cover different things, then everyone will get to shine sometimes.

And your dex-less character can always fall. Which can be fun in itself

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Tony Vargas · Mar 19, 2017

Nathal said:
I'm curious...Do you bother trying to roleplay the character according to the Int score you choose? Does anybody do so in your group?

'Dumping' in 5e point buy is still an 8, barely off the mean. Unless you have an IQ higher than a pro quarterback, you don't have to play particularly dumb to carry off an 8. 18 should be more of a challenge.

D&D 5E Where does optimizing end and min-maxing begin? And is min-maxing a bad thing?

Redthistle

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