D&D 5E Where does optimizing end and min-maxing begin? And is min-maxing a bad thing?
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
If he thinks that's min maxing, just wait until you start using your abilities effectively!
transtemporal
Explorer
No of course not, the point being I don't have problems so therefore not ALL DMs have the problem...
I've seen the effect of powergamers too but the only time I step in is if people aren't having fun. And I know the DM is one of those people, but the DM has options! It's his/her game! Encounters aren't hard enough? Start encounters at deadly! Characters levelling too fast? Change the rate! The rules are not a straitjacket!
Devils advocate: whats the worst impact of that scenario? A character dies? The whole party dies? Is it really so bad if a character dies? Is it really so bad if the entire party dies?
I sometimes think DMs are so terrified of killing characters they will go to extraordinarily passive-aggressive lengths to avoid it, including designing easy encounters then piously complaining on a forum the encounter was too easy.
Prism
Explorer
I don't know about you but I have to dumb it down to play a 12 Int character
I reckon Int 8 is pretty tricky to do for most of us RPGers
Tony Vargas
Legend
In an escalating optimization arms race that the DM keeps up with in terms of challenge, but is in a context, like organized play, where a player might walk in with a less-optimized character? (If I followed the context correctly.)
Worst case the player, possibly experiencing D&D for the first time, essentially sits out the session, has a terrible time, and never returns. Really, though, that can happen without an optimization arms race.
I don't know about you but I have to dumb it down to play a 12 Int character
Yeah, we're humble, too...
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I don't know about you but I have to dumb it down to play a 12 Int character
To play an opposing point of view, you have to dumb it down to play your idea(or your groups idea) of a 12 int. It is possible that all of you over-estimate yourselves, as about 80% of the population does. I would say the main thing most RPGers can boast is greater imagination, rather than intelligence.
transtemporal
Explorer
Yeah thats true but there is some onus on the DM not to be a prick about character death, e.g. you should avoid laughing at the person.
But back to optimisation, I don't think its that big a deal in 5e compared to 3e and (to a certain extent) 4e. We seem to think that 5e is Peak Powergamerfication and it will never be as bad as it is right now.
ZeshinX
Adventurer
I have no real set definitions for min/maxing or optimizing. I don't take particular issue with those things in and of themselves. If it's what you favor, and it's fun for you, go for it, though you may want to find a group of like-minded people to play with. Optimize or min/max your fun, if you will. You'll find little to enjoy at my table.
I do ask players at my table to come up with a concept, not a build. Come up with a compelling (to you) fictional person with wants, needs, desires and motivations...a personality basically, before you even look at stats or roll dice. Come up with WHO you want to play before you even go near WHAT you want to play.
I have no wish to play D&D with what I find amounts to a party of spreadsheets. To those who do, awesome, it's what you love and have fun with, and that's always great. I have no doubt there's plenty of like-minded groups to game with. I find it quite boring, but that's me.
Once you've got your WHO, crafting the WHAT tends to come pretty easily. I have no issues with wanting your WHAT to be the most effective WHAT they can be, but remain true to your WHO when doing so.
So I suppose my point is, I don't care about min/maxing or optimizing if it's done in service to a well thought out and interesting complete character. If it's just for the numbers, I'll politely ask you to find another table, as you'll find little to enjoy at mine.
I do ask players at my table to come up with a concept, not a build. Come up with a compelling (to you) fictional person with wants, needs, desires and motivations...a personality basically, before you even look at stats or roll dice. Come up with WHO you want to play before you even go near WHAT you want to play.
I have no wish to play D&D with what I find amounts to a party of spreadsheets. To those who do, awesome, it's what you love and have fun with, and that's always great. I have no doubt there's plenty of like-minded groups to game with. I find it quite boring, but that's me.
Once you've got your WHO, crafting the WHAT tends to come pretty easily. I have no issues with wanting your WHAT to be the most effective WHAT they can be, but remain true to your WHO when doing so.
So I suppose my point is, I don't care about min/maxing or optimizing if it's done in service to a well thought out and interesting complete character. If it's just for the numbers, I'll politely ask you to find another table, as you'll find little to enjoy at mine.
Tony Vargas
Legend
Optimization can happen in any system, of course. 3e intentionally rewarded system mastery so was the extreme pinnacle of optimization consequences for D&D. 4e over-reacted to that with unprecedented attention to balance among PCs. 5e's more measured strategy is to just give us less to optimize with, and build on that slowly, keeping the new stuff optional. As long as organized play is fairly conservative about what it allows, it shouldn't ever get near as profound an issue as it was in 3e. So, yeah, I"m not to worried about optimization and bloat wrecking 5e (as extreme as it was in 3e, the game wasn't completely wrecked by it, D&Ders still played it and had fun with it, at least, I sure seem to remember doing so at the time). But, while they can be minimized, optimization can have consequences to the play experience.
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Nathal
Explorer
How exactly to role-play a stat like INT has always been tricky. Most tend to ignore the number and play the character as he wishes. Thus the "dump" stat unless there's a mechanical reason to increase it. Same with Charisma.
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