D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

billd91 · May 31, 2017

Hussar said:
Umm, that's not right. Greyhawk was the main focus of 3e, not Forgotten Realms. 3e used Greyhawk as the baseline setting - gods, locations, heck one of the first big adventures was Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. It wasn't until after Hasbro got into the act that Forgotten Realms got any real traction.

Yes and no. The default setting for 3e's core rulebooks was Greyhawk and the premiere Living Campaign was Living Greyhawk. But that and the Gazetteer are about it. FR's entry into 3e's publication schedule was in 2001 and ultimately includes many more sourcebooks. And since Hasbro bought WotC in 1999, they're really not likely to actually be a factor in the publication emphasis on FR rather than Greyhawk.

ccs · May 31, 2017

Hussar said:
But... that has nothing to do with what you said. You said, and I'll quote it a THIRD time:

How, exactly, did they chose the FR as their main focus for books in 3e prior to Hasbro when they did not produce a SINGLE FR book, supplement or product until TWO YEARS AFTER Hasbro acquired WotC?

Or, did you mean after the Hasbro acquisition?

I imagine the bean counters crunched some sales info data concerning the company they just bought.
And they saw something like this:
FR sales = $$$$
GH sales = $$$
Other settings sales = $$
Now take into account any potential legal problems with GH, etc.

Conclusion? Sell more FR stuff. Then do just enough with the other titles to maintain copyrights, etc.

thenimblebanana · May 31, 2017

Saelorn said:
At low levels, sure, Elminster is too busy to handle whatever goblins the party is dealing with. By the time the party hits level 20, they are the equal of Elminster, and the threat they face is global in scale. That's what epic-level heroes do, is that they face threats to the entire world.

Either Elminster and the other Legends of the Realm should be showing up to help, or there has to be some good reason for why they are not. What could possibly be more important than saving the world?

I don't think that the world has been at risk at all during any of the official campaigns. At worst, specific parts of the Sword Coast have been at risk but definitely not the world. I mean the books do say that Faerun may fall to Tiamat or be overrun by Demonlords but that's the absolute worst case scenario... could be worse.

Maxperson · May 31, 2017

Hussar said:
Thank you. That was my quibble.

So were you, though. We were discussing the focus of 3e, all of which happened after Hasbro bought them. Pointing out that the focus happened in 3e after Hasbro bought WotC is like pointing out that WWII happened after the US declared independence. It's a big so what. It had no worthwhile point that I can see.

machineelf · May 31, 2017

Derren said:
Sure you can decide that this is what happens, but then you have to answer the question of why they are not doing anything. And this doesnt just mean the super NPCs but also the numerous lvl 10+ do gooders which are all over Faerun.
Or you can make a contract with your players to never ever speak about this topic.
Either way you wouldnt have to do this if you used your own world.

I mean this is true. But I also enjoy having a world where there are some high-level wizards or other characters my players can run into from time to time. It makes for interesting story-telling. For example, my current group just met one of the Seven Sisters of Mystra. They are curious and interested in these possibly immortal women w and the mystery surrounding them. My players seem to find that at least slightly captivating. They know there are 6 more out there, and they know the identity of one other, but they don't know more than that. Much later in the campaign when they run into a third of the Seven Sisters, it will be a cool moment for them.

Having a world where only the characters (and presumably bad NPCs) achieve very high levels, but not good NPCs for some reason, doesn't seem very believable to me.

So yes, what you say is true about explaining why high level NPCS aren't the ones going out to solve the problems your NPCs are facing, but it's a problem that I'm willing to tackle in order to keep the interesting characters in the game.

Demetrios1453 · May 31, 2017

Saelorn said:
At low levels, sure, Elminster is too busy to handle whatever goblins the party is dealing with. By the time the party hits level 20, they are the equal of Elminster, and the threat they face is global in scale. That's what epic-level heroes do, is that they face threats to the entire world.

Either Elminster and the other Legends of the Realm should be showing up to help, or there has to be some good reason for why they are not. What could possibly be more important than saving the world?

And how many campaigns are run at that level?

In any case, bumping into the "big names" of any setting once you're level 17+ or so shouldn't be too surprising - in Planescape for example, at that level characters may very well have gotten the notice of the Court of Stars/The Five Companions/The Hebdomad or some of the Archdevils/Demon Lords.

What I was responding to was the suggestion in several posts that characters of low to medium levels in the Realms are stripped of their agency because some high level NPC is going to inevitably swoop in as a deus ex machina and take out any true threat the characters may face, which is simply not the case for any DM that doesn't want that to happen. Simply don't use said NPCs, or use them sparingly as background flavor at that point.

Yes, the characters may encounter them at higher levels, but by that point those NPCs are now more peers than superiors, and anything powerful enough to threaten the characters now threatens the NPCs as well. And even then, they are avoidable if a DM wants - if a threat escalates quickly, there might not even be time for the big gun NPCs to get the news; heck, they might be on another plane entirely at that point. Or if a threat is big enough over a widespread area, said NPCs may have to concentrate on some areas while the characters deal with the situation in others. After all, if demons start pouring out of gates that are suddenly appearing without warning all over the Realms, Elminster will be busy dealing with the one that opened in Myth Drannor and Laeral with the one that popped up near Waterdeep - and are my group just going to sit around and watch Baldur's Gate get wrecked assuming that some high-level NPC is going to deal with the issue? Not if they are heroes they're not!

Maxperson · May 31, 2017

Demetrios1453 said:
And how many campaigns are run at that level?

In any case, bumping into the "big names" of any setting once you're level 17+ or so shouldn't be too surprising - in Planescape for example, at that level characters may very well have gotten the notice of the Court of Stars/The Five Companions/The Hebdomad or some of the Archdevils/Demon Lords.

What I was responding to was the suggestion in several posts that characters of low to medium levels in the Realms are stripped of their agency because some high level NPC is going to inevitably swoop in as a deus ex machina and take out any true threat the characters may face, which is simply not the case for any DM that doesn't want that to happen. Simply don't use said NPCs, or use them sparingly as background flavor at that point.

Yes, the characters may encounter them at higher levels, but by that point those NPCs are now more peers than superiors, and anything powerful enough to threaten the characters now threatens the NPCs as well. And even then, they are avoidable if a DM wants - if a threat escalates quickly, there might not even be time for the big gun NPCs to get the news; heck, they might be on another plane entirely at that point. Or if a threat is big enough over a widespread area, said NPCs may have to concentrate on some areas while the characters deal with the situation in others. After all, if demons start pouring out of gates that are suddenly appearing without warning all over the Realms, Elminster will be busy dealing with the one that opened in Myth Drannor and Laeral with the one that popped up near Waterdeep - and are my group just going to sit around and watch Baldur's Gate get wrecked assuming that some high-level NPC is going to deal with the issue? Not if they are heroes they're not!

Yep. At low to mid levels, the PCs shouldn't be encountering any named NPCs other than as roleplaying props. Elminster isn't going to bother to go run off to save a town from 2 giants. He's too busy dealing with Zhentil Keep or Thay.

Shasarak · May 31, 2017

JeffB said:
Hmm..

I find FR naming conventions pretty generic blah, compared to settings like GH (though GH has a few that are tough to take, they are/were made as a nod to Gary's family, friends and players and not meant to be so "real" and "serious" as FR is.)

That said, sounds like a 8 year old kid came up with alot of the names in FR...Eveningstar, Waterdeep,Unermountain, Shadowdale, Storm Silverhand, Florin Falconhand, Darkhold, Neverwinter, Moonbeam Fancypants,etc..

I know what you mean: Ox ford, Cam bridge, New York, Victoria what a lot of crap names people come up with.

Bluenose · May 31, 2017

Maxperson said:
That's just it, though. They don't do all the heavy lifting. The PCs get to do all of saving the world without the interference of Elminster or anyone else. Why? Because they are off doing their own thing and they can't stop in the middle to take care of something else. If the PCs fail to save the world, the world ends.

Ah, the prime reason why Elminster et al can't ever be plausibly proclaimed not to be Mary Sues. They're doing something as vital as saving the world, off-screen, and succeeding every single time.

Hussar · May 31, 2017

There's another issue, for me, as well. My group uses a lot of different settings. Our gaming over the past ten years (ish) has been:

1. Greyhawk (Savage Tide Adventure Path) - largely self contained AP with all the information that you really need to run the campaign. Any additional GH material was just icing on the cake.

2. Dark Sun. (4e homebrew). -

3. Dragonlance - (5e homebrew)

4. Ravenloft - (5e Curse of Strahd) - again, self contained module where 99% of the information you could use for that campaign is self contained in the module.

5. Primeval Thule - (5e homebrew with modules) - The setting only has one guide book. Not exactly a high bar of entry.

6. Forgotten Realms (Storm King's Thunder) - the first really FR adventure we've delved into in 10 years.

So, why would I go out and research all this mountain of material for a setting that I'm not going to use more than a tiny amount of my gaming time? The bar to entry is just so high that I wouldn't even know where to start. And, because I know there's that mountain of material, I have zero interest in finding out where to start.

D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)

ccs

41st lv DM

thenimblebanana

First Post

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

machineelf

Explorer

Demetrios1453

Hero

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Shasarak

Banned

Bluenose

Adventurer

Hussar

Legend

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