Okay we can disagree on that issue. If he runs games like that today then I would easily place him in the bad-DM camp.
dude it isn't even the tip of the iceberg of bad DM practices...and I did admit that pretty early, not only would it not happen today but the reason is that I wouldn't have put up with his style of DMing today as I did as a teen.
But don't you think it would be disingenuous for me to say in a debate about 4e hey GM 4e is crap based on young DM/bad DM example?
but having a bad DM in 4e that gave all the monster regen when bloodied would make the fights take longer...that doesn't mean I can't when asked why I think it's bad that fights take long use an example of 6 hour fight and how boreing it was... infact to show case that 'long fights are not fun' I could even use Rifts as my example... because the point is 'long fights are a problem with 4e'. so I need to show 2 thing 1) fights in 4e take long 2) long fights bad. My rifts example can prove 2 but not 1. So if asked "are you sure that your DM didn't mess up 4e and make the fights too long" the regen example proves nothing, BUT if the question is "why are long fights bad" the rifts example fits fine...
bringing this back to topic of 5e as is, I was not trying to answer the quastions "In D&D5e are there save or suck spells, or spells that can take you out of play." because a 2e bad DM example wont show that at all...However my example was way more basic "Why spells, traps or abilities that take a player out for the rest of the session are annoying"
Here is the thing. Have you never been surprised by a DM?
Yup all the time...that's why I didn't use those as an example...in fact once again I choose my example as something from years ago with the full hindsight of knowing how not only that dungeon played out, not only that campaign played out but having played with that DM all the way through 3e coming out AND still to this day being friends with and talking to him and his wife. a surprise is a little late 20ish years later...
I'm not saying this DM would have done it - but its not that far fetched for me to imagine a situation which initially appears impossible but the DM through narrating the story provides a surprising twist.
Yup...I have even said that, I would put a scroll, an item, something to break free the person in the next treasure or give him or her a quick option to bring in something else...why, because of the main thesisis of this post "IS IT FUN TO BE FORCED OUT OF THE GAME FOR LONG PERIODS?" my answer is no... now can a good DM give the fighter a way to teleport/plane shift back, or free you from imprisonment, YES, but if they don't then taking you out of play SUCKs
As a basic example...TPK in combat only for party to be resurrected centuries later by a mysterious entity.
Did you in early 2000's play in CT, if so that might have been the second 3e game I ever played...(also a bad DM story, but because he played favorites with his girlfriends character, not the tpk.res)
Imprisoned, only for the magic spell to suddenly fail a few days later, as magic everywhere mysteriously waxes and wanes...
Yup...that would have been cool, but in no way was that happening... we were at beginning of a dungeon, the next day was 2 real world weeks away.
Remember my response was to your initial post - I had not know you had asked the DM whether your escape was possible.
But you did know escape was impossible, I spelled out it was years ago, and there was no way. I may not have given you many detail (at the time I just assumed everyone would read the words of what happened and trust my account) but the details I did share was "No way out".
see it is the single most important part of the story, and the part you and others want to ignore. If a player's character is taken out of play for an extended pearid by any means, it is not fun. There are work arounds a DM can come up with (give them an NPC, let them get an item to get them back in, have magic fail) but once they do so it ends the problem (problem being the extended time out of play) but doesn't mean the problem isn't there, just that they worked around it.
Okay, I'm not here to defend other posters. I have had the luxury of 2 bad DMs IMO (they were brothers), who happened to run 4e.
if you have played any real amount of time and only ever found 2 bad GMs I am very envies of your experience...I have had at least as many bad DMs as Good ones...
I believe the reason they were poor at DMing were because their experience was largely homogenous - they had no exposure to differing styles and roleplayers which did little to grow them as DMs. (Side Note - That is why places like Enworld are great for the community - I firmly believe it creates better DM's and players).
I agree.
Now I don't have an issue with 4e based on those bad DM's. You entered the conversation and blamed save-vs-suck on this bad DM - and here is the key thing to remember, bleachers-loving guy @
Caliban even admitted this might have been something he would do 15 years ago. That is the sole reason where we are disagreeing (besides the save vs suck thing).
except the discussion of 'being taken out of play for extended periods of time' can't be solved with "just don't do it" and still be OK...the fact that "A good DM can work around a bad situation" isn't in and of it self proof of "It's not a bad situation"
If a guy is out for a fight because save-vs-suck its not the end of the world at our table, the guys have fun - jesting, giving advice, making coffee...etc and we would NEVER have a guy be out for an entire session at our table - that is ridiculous, ESPECIALLY since we don't play as often as when we were teenagers/20 years old, so RPG-time is precious. So on that we agree, just not on the example you used in the debate to argue vs save-vs-suck
then go back and please reread, because I belive you are not reading any of what I wrote