D&D 5E Is it fair to cast save-or-suck spells on the players?

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lowkey13 said:

*As a side note, I should inform you that I, in particular, do not enjoy posts that use "straw man," "ad hominem," "appeal to authority (ad verecundiam)" and other references to logical fallacies, either formal or informal, because when this is done, it is almost always done incorrectly. Usually, the person doing so has, at best, a shallow understanding of "internet argumentation," and perhaps a recall of Logic 101 in undergraduate. Moreover, it usually means that the person is more interested in arguing about arguing than a substantive discussion. Other's opinions might vary- but that is mine.

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Before we continue, I want to make sure I understand the nature of your post. I was being completely sincere when I said "I know you intend well", which was based on my extremely limited exposure to your posts in the Survival threads, which seemed to be lighthearted and friendly.

But just looking at this reply, and especially the asterisk explanation, I'm getting a really different and adversarial vibe. So, if I'm totally misreading your tone (a problem with online text) then I'm completely sorry for asking for clarification, and I will happily dive into a reply! But if you did intend the tone to sound adversarial, then I would rather bow out right now.

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lowkey13 said:

Again, how a table runs is its own business. But I wouldn't want to play at that table. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Perfectly fair. But, that does not give you any justification for judging others. The fact that you call other tables that don't want to play the way you do, "Monte Haul" tables (actually the wrong issue since Monte Haul refers to campaigns with far greater rewards than is justified for the levels of the characters) and characterizing other tables as "cheating" in favor of the players says a lot more about your personal preferences than anything about the issue at hand.

There's a whole world of different choices between "pure DPR" and "Sidelining a player for an entire session".

Fortunately, 5e largely leans on the "don't sideline PC's for extended periods of time" by making very few options available to sideline a player for extended periods of time. Even Save or Die options are typically not one shot affairs with even death being little more than a speed bump considering Revivify is an option available to low level parties. Save or Suck options are almost always save per round.

No, the issue in the OP's case is that he chose a number of Save or Suck spells that were outliers. The Banishment thing obviously is an issue for ANY planar adventure. It's not like Banishment is a particularly high level spell. This means that you can sideline a PC pretty much instantly, at any time and, unless the PC's have a significant amount of magic, permanently, at least for that adventure. You cannot presume that every group will have Plane Shift and Teleport - those are very high level spells and aren't available to every caster.

Does that mean that high level groups that go on planar adventures MUST have a wizard, otherwise don't bother? Or, wouldn't a better option be to simply not use a Banishment spell? Or, maybe, just maybe, adjust the Banishment spell a little bit so that it doesn't completely sideline a PC on a failed save?

Oh, right, doing that is cheating and creates Monte Haul games with no consequences. Right.

I think my only issue here as far as the op goes is that Banishment in a planar game is effectively save or die. It's too powerful for that specific situation. I mean why is this the first time it's come up? A spell that powerful at that low of a level should be the first thing everyone casts. IOW it's unbalanced. I'd suggest amending the spell before using it in any planar adventure.

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Frankly, Banishment is one of the first spells I take on any caster that has it available. It's just too effective and useful.

Few monsters have a decent charisma save. And if they are extra-planar, it can effectively be a "save or die" spell. Plus you can affect multiple creatures with it at higher levels. And if you somehow get stranded on another plane - you can Banish yourself back to your home plane!

But - you have to maintain concentration for 10 rounds to make it permanent. So even if it is cast on a PC (when they are on another plane) they can be returned if you can break the caster's concentration within 10 rounds.

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lowkey13 said:

But imagine you are a particular player that enjoys overcoming challenges. Let's say that, to use an example, you wanted to beat someone at chess. And then you beat him. Great! But if you learn that the player let you win ... not so great. The challenge was illusory. There was no thrill in victory, because the outcome was pre-ordained.

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I always remember that scene in Star Wars where Chewbacca and C3PO are playing space chess.