Better Battle Master Beta v0.1

Hi Everybody! (Hi Dr. Nick!)

I would like your assistance attempting to work on an altered version of the Battle Master Fighter subclass.

The basic idea is to give the Battle Master more chances to use their current maneuvers as well as the ability to learn advanced maneuvers at levels 10+. At the same time, I'm trying to keep the damage equal/close to the current Battle Master.

Here is my preliminary work.
http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJz1FBVUl

Things to note:

• I've decided to remove die scaling and instead add additional dice to facilitate more maneuver usage.
• I've added Advanced Maneuvers that require you to use two dice (2d6) that have a more paragon/epic level feel.
• I've changed Relentless to give 3 dice per initiative roll if you are out of maneuvers.

Please let me know what I can add or change. If you have ideas for maneuvers or if the current ones are imbalanced, please let me know!

Thanks everyone!

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Mathsplanation
All attacks vs a hobgoblin with AC18
Starting 16 Strength and a +2 to Strength at 4th and 6th level.
30 rounds of combat, 6 combats a day, 5 rounds per combat, and 2 short rests.
Action surge uses are represented by additional rounds of combat.
Using a Longsword in one hand with Dueling Fighting Style.

Formula
Rounds x Attacks x (Hit Chance x Attack Damage + Crit Chance * Crit Damage) + Superiority Dice per Day * Superiority Die Damage = Damage Per Day

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Current Battle Master
Lv. 3: 33x1x(.35x9.5 + .05x4.5) + 12x4.5 = 171.15
Lv. 5: 33x2x(.45x10.5 + .05x4.5) + 12x4.5 = 380.7
Lv. 7: 33x2x(.5x11.5 + .05x4.5) + 15x4.5 = 461.85
Lv. 10: 33x2x(.55x11.5 + .05x4.5) + 15x5.5 = 514.8
Lv. 11: 33x3x(.55x11.5 + .05x4.5) + 15x5.5 = 730.95
Lv. 15: 33x3x(.6x11.5 + .05x4.5) + 21x5.5 = 820.88
Lv. 18: 36x3x(.65x11.5 + .05x4.5) + 21x6.5 = 968.1
Lv. 20: 36x4x(.65x11.5 + .05x4.5) + 21x6.5 = 1,245.3

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New Battle Master
Lv. 3: 33x1x(.35x9.5 + .05x4.5) + 18x3.5 = 180.15
Lv. 5: 33x2x(.45x10.5 + .05x4.5) + 18x3.5 = 389.7
Lv. 7: 33x2x(.5x11.5 + .05x4.5) + 24x3.5 = 478.35
Lv. 10: 33x2x(.55x11.5 + .05x4.5) + 24x3.5 = 516.3
Lv. 11: 33x3x(.55x11.5 + .05x4.5) + 24x3.5 = 732.45
Lv. 15: 33x3x(.6x11.5 + .05x4.5) + 33x3.5 = 820.88
Lv. 18: 36x3x(.65x11.5 + .05x4.5) + 39x3.5 = 968.1
Lv. 20: 36x4x(.65x11.5 + .05x4.5) + 39x3.5 = 1245.3

So the damage curve is largely flat but you get to use your Manoeuvres more often? Looks fun.

A things to note:

Relentless used to grant one d12 per (6.5 damage) per activation. Now it grants 3d6 (10.5 damage per activation).

Abilities like riposte or precise strike are significantly more powerful with extra uses per rest. These maneuvers will up your damage significantly and having 66% more uses than a regular battlemaster will mean this version will do much more damage overall.

Brutal strike doubles the damage of your dice if you use them all for damage only. Your version of the battlemaster would effectively deal 78d6 of damage per day from brutal strike which is double the amount the regular battlemaster gets from their dice.

Oh! Oh! Oh!
This might help. Might not too, but heh, shameless plug.

Ashkelon said:

A things to note:

Relentless used to grant one d12 per (6.5 damage) per activation. Now it grants 3d6 (10.5 damage per activation).

Click to expand...

You are correct that it is a little stronger, however it is considered in the math I posted above. I estimate that with 6 encounters per day if you are able to use 10d6 in the first encounter after each rest and take a rest after the second encounter you are looking at about 9 dice per day.

Let me know if you still think this may be a problem.

Ashkelon said:

Abilities like riposte or precise strike are significantly more powerful with extra uses per rest. These maneuvers will up your damage significantly and having 66% more uses than a regular battlemaster will mean this version will do much more damage overall.

Click to expand...

While I agree that riposte does get more powerful (which is really just an issue with that maneuver being a bit overpowered in the first place), precise strike is actually weaker since it now only gives a bonus of 1-6.

Any ideas of how I could mitigate that while still keeping additional maneuvers?

Ashkelon said:

Brutal strike doubles the damage of your dice if you use them all for damage only. Your version of the battlemaster would effectively deal 78d6 of damage per day from brutal strike which is double the amount the regular battlemaster gets from their dice.

Click to expand...

The dice are spent previously to hitting with Brutal Strike. So you have the possibility of wasting the dice. I thought that risk reward could balance the extra damage. With that in mind do you think it's still too strong?

Yunru said:

Oh! Oh! Oh!
This might help. Might not too, but heh, shameless plug.

Click to expand...

It might help, but I can't read it because the table doesn't appear to be showing up correctly for me.

DaedalusX51 said:

It might help, but I can't read it because the table doesn't appear to be showing up correctly for me.

Click to expand...

Oh wow, what is that?
ENWorld you done ed up.


EDIT: Aaand fixed.
I bring it up because I was thinking similar thoughts, only making the Fighter subclasses half-classes (so 1/2 caster Eldritch Knight, 1/2 Manuevers Battle Master, and the Champion getting a power boost).

I like the approach. I'd probably be a bit worried about supplying an extra 2 superiority dice for just a 3 level dip that doesn't suffer for being limited to 1d6. There might be multi-class abuse potential - riposte plus sneak attack for example. It might be better to delay those extra two dice until later on?

One alternative is if Riposte only does superiority die damage plus Strength or Dex mod, which is more in keeping with it being for small, fast weapons instead of two-handed swords in any event, then using it more often seem much less good.

Pauln6 said:

I like the approach. I'd probably be a bit worried about supplying an extra 2 superiority dice for just a 3 level dip that doesn't suffer for being limited to 1d6. There might be multi-class abuse potential - riposte plus sneak attack for example. It might be better to delay those extra two dice until later on?

One alternative is if Riposte only does superiority die damage plus Strength or Dex mod, which is more in keeping with it being for small, fast weapons instead of two-handed swords in any event, then using it more often seem much less good.

Click to expand...

Changing Riposte maybe the best bet since it seems to be imbalanced compared to the other maneuvers. In addition, going with how you worded it would make it match functionality with Parry, which is a nice thematic bonus.

Personally, I say scrap superiority dice entirely. They really don't add much to the battlemaster except for additional rolling and an unnecessary waste of game time.

Instead, use superiority points or "stamina" which serve the same purpose as the dice do now, but have no additional rolling involved.

Any maneuver that adds additional dice of damage will no longer add extra damage. Any maneuver that uses dice for other effects will just use the proficiency bonus of the battlemaster.


The battlemaster doesn't need to have more damage anyway, especially if they are gaining additional uses of maneuvers by having a larger pool of stamina than the traditional battlemaster has superiority dice. Even more so when you consider the additional damage that can be gained from maneuvers like riposte or precision.

Higher level maneuvers can have greater stamina cost and even greater effects.